DEF going away ?

[Hay Dude]

Just saw road diesel for $2.99 - 15 miles from here. Typical prices around here are $3.10-3.15.

That’s another reason why Texas just kicks the crap outta most other states. Mine included.

 

[Hay Dude]

I don't recall how I worded it but what I meant to imply, and is still just clearly true, is that the emissions systems technology is robust and reliable. From a functional engineering perspective, it is incredibly easy and straightforward to catch particulates in a DPF that periodically initiates a regeneration based upon differential pressure sensors. From the same perspective, it is incredibly easy and straightforward to inject DEF into an SCR to convert smog-forming oxides of nitrogen into harmless water and nitrogen. These technologies were chosen for diesel engine emissions compliance precisely because they are easy and reliable.

So what do you need to make this all work seamlessly for the end user? A competent integration to the vehicle, engine (and transmission if we want to lump that in) in terms of equipment sizing, controls, sensors, and of course quality manufacturing.

What vehicles have problems on the road? The ones where the vehicle manufacturer cut corners and chose low-cost suppliers, and/or didn't do their proper engineering on sizing and controls of the aftertreatment components. Where you find actual problems in the field tend to be on lower-margin vehicles, or low-volume vehicles that simply don't warrant the necessary investment in engineering and system validation. Why do we see so many threads about LS tractors having DPF issues here? Because LS sucks at engineering and is intentionally producing a low cost product.

What vehicles don't have hardly any issues at all? The highest volume products with the most at stake. Think your Ford 6.7, duramax, Cummins ISB. People are still buying diesel HD pickup trucks in record volumes because the emissions compliance technology works seamlessly (in general), and certainly well enough not to deter buyers. It simply just works fine, and keeps our air much cleaner.

So if your truck is having issues on the road, its basically because your manufacturer just sucked at integration, controls, or cut costs. My 2c: blame them, not the regulations. Because for most of us, it all works just fine and is well worth having in place. Thus, the regulations will remain. Do your homework and research, buy what works.

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

 

[ptsg]

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

If Rudolph Diesel came back out of the grave and saw what the amount of crap they added to the simple diesel engine he invented, he would just run straight back to the grave.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

In my career working off of the farm for 35 years I met a lot of people but whenever someone strolled in and said they were an engineer and this is how we needed to do it, I would hear them out and when they were finished I would boom up and go back to work, there was a saying from the old lineman that I started under and it was " Do you know how I know that you are an engineer?" To which they would reply no how? It's because nothing you draw up seems to work. Don't get me wrong I worked with a few that came out on the crew to understand why certain things didn't work and would ask for you to meet them on new jobs for advice on future work and they were good people but most of them fell under the old rule.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I searched for 5 months to find my non-computer, non emissions 2005 tractor ... I'm not gonna spend my money on that emissions stuff ... in a diesel engine, gasoline seems to be a bit better adapted to it, is it because they have had more time to refine/choke it? Or is gasoline easier to clean, and keep cleaner?

 

[Gregster613]

My 2021 GC 1725 MB rear 540 PTO needs 2900 RPM, redlines at 3100 RPM.

My 2005 Kubota Grand L 5030 rear 540 PTO needs 2700 RPM, redlines at 2700 RPM ... Keep them hot!

rScotty and Shaw, I was going to say that I run my 273 at pto speeds whenever I'm using it and those are about 2500 or better - which is just before redline.

 

[LouNY]

Heck I use my 540 economy mode to have pto speed when needed at less the 1700 rpm and I'm often running at 1200 to 1500 rpm with full pto speed being 2500 rpm.

 

[2manyrocks]

Didn't have my watch with me today, but spent several minutes waiting for regen to complete before I could finish mowing today. The problem is I don't need to operate at high rpm to mow this late in the season, but if I don't operate at a high rpm, the regen cycle kicks in. This is the stupidest system.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

My company couldn't see any problems with my system remotely ... They said maybe it needed a "hard reset" or maybe was "just a glitch"! But had me stop at a Love's Truck Stop ... I spent 7 hours in the shop! Almost $1200 invoice ... Lights Still on!

My company asked me to disconnect the battery ... Check engine light (CEL) is now still on! Gonna just drive it until it stops ... Then they can tow it!

While in the shop another guy comes in with a brand new Peterbilt that Clean Harbors just bought, it had a PACCAR engine in it, he had just picked it up at the dealership in Houston and had a total of 184 miles on it ... He got the dash warning of "derate soon" and started with the count down clock, when he pulled into the truck stop he had 115 minutes until full derate, which is "limp mode 5 MPH"! He was headed to Corpus Christi ...

They tried to do a forced regen, but PACCAR had it locked out, so they couldn't do anything with it ... And wished him "Good Luck"!

 

[rScotty]

I searched for 5 months to find my non-computer, non emissions 2005 tractor ... I'm not gonna spend my money on that emissions stuff ... in a diesel engine, gasoline seems to be a bit better adapted to it, is it because they have had more time to refine/choke it? Or is gasoline easier to clean, and keep cleaner?

Neither of those theories are correct...but both are close.

But you are right in that there is a difference in the fuels, gas or diesel, and that difference does play into how the emissions are controlled.

Here is how it works:

A gas engine always runs a bit rich - that is to say the incoming charge has more fuel than is needed in the fuel/air combustion mix. Because the mixture is rich, the engine combustion can be controlled simply by throttling the air....which means both horse power and efficiency can be raised simply by opening the throttle to add more air. As a bonus, adding more air makes the combustion more lean, it burns hotter, and burns more completely. That leads to a hotter exhaust with less particles, and makes it easier for a simple catalyst in the muffler to remove the remaining emissions from the exhaust flow.

Diesel fuel burn very differently. Diesel engines don't have a air throttle plate to regulate the amount of air coming into the intake. Their air flow in is always wide open. Because of that, diesels can't help but run on the lean side of fuel/air combustion mix. Unlike a gas engine that adds air to add power, a diesel already has all the air it needs. What it needs is more fuel to make a better fuel/air mixture. So diesels add more fuel when they want more power. That is the key thought: that adding fuel, not air, is how a diesel increases their horse power.
Adding fuel to the diesel's air/fuel mix does move the resulting fuel/air mix closer to being a perfect combustion mix, and that does gives it more power, lots more power. But the resulting fuel/air mixture loses efficiency, because the mixture is just too far on the rich side of the burn curve for complete combustion to happen. So the harder the diesel works, the more its exhaust contains incomplete combustion residue in the form or smelly acids and soot particles. In extreme cases, we call it "rolling coal". There is a lot more things to clean up in a diesel exhaust than in a gasoline engine exhaust.

That is why cleaning up diesel exhaust is more complicated than cleaning up the exhaust on gas engines.

Hope this helps,
rScotty

 

[rontaki]

Tow it in, throw it out?

 

[rScotty]

Didn't have my watch with me today, but spent several minutes waiting for regen to complete before I could finish mowing today. The problem is I don't need to operate at high rpm to mow this late in the season, but if I don't operate at a high rpm, the regen cycle kicks in. This is the stupidest system.

Yes. It is a stupid solution. A stupid solution by lazy engineers whose companies all copied one another.

It's a dumb solution and even worse by engineering standards, it is an inefficient one.
That can happen when legislation instead of innovation is allowed to drive a manufacturing timetable.

Emissions needed to be reduced. We all know that.

But the way that industry decided to control emissions is incredibly dumb. Not only is it way too complicated, it has the built in problem that running an engine at high RPM to create heat also creates even more pollutants that have to be removed. It's chasing it's own tail.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...but well-meaning legislation, lazy engineers, and uncaring manufacturers.

rScotty

 

[WACATTACK]

People who say manufactures will not do it because of other countries still require it, I disagree. A good example would be military vehicles like trucks do not have this BS installed. That is why if you buy one in an auction they will say not legal for road use or title. So if they are already doing it for the military it will be nothing to do it for the public market. They know this will save them money also after the sale having to work on warranty issues.

 

[4570Man]

People who say manufactures will not do it because of other countries still require it, I disagree. A good example would be military vehicles like trucks do not have this BS installed. That is why if you buy one in an auction they will say not legal for road use or title. So if they are already doing it for the military it will be nothing to do it for the public market. They know this will save them money also after the sale having to work on warranty issues.

All they have to do is make a new tune and redesign the exhaust. It wild to think they wouldn’t do an easy mod to save thousands of dollars per truck plus cut the warranty work and make customers extremely happy.

 

[deezler]

OMG, I’ve read novels shorter….

Hey man, we know what you said, you don’t have to kill yourself trying to unwind and re-explain everything.
I say DEF & DPF and cooled EGR systems suck, I don’t care what your graphs, charts & manuals say.
I really don’t care if your a petroleum engineer, nuclear physicist or Rudolph Diesel himself, ain’t no getting around it.
And prolly 80% of truckers & farmers would agree with me.

You know what an “80/20” issue is? Let me give you some help….you’re on the “20” side.

Bro, no need to keep being rude about this. I only typed all that out to try to help you understand the situation more fully.

Regarding your 80/20 notion, you are squarely in the minority of Americans, actually. The vast majority of us have no issues with reliability on our vehicles and prefer cleaner exhaust coming out of truck tailpipes. So keep yelling at the clouds if it makes you feel better, but it's a shame you aren't willing to to find any nuance or common ground in this. And in the engineering community who actually produce the products you depend upon, we actually also agree and must follow public policy and regulations regardless.

Like, so you are grumpy about some failing EGR valves and SCR sensors needing work occasionally. The rest of us don't care, thats the price of clean air. Pass the cost of downtime on to the consumers (as you already do) and we'll pay for it. It's worth it.

 

[deezler]

Yes. It is a stupid solution. A stupid solution by lazy engineers whose companies all copied one another.

It's a dumb solution and even worse by engineering standards, it is an inefficient one.
That can happen when legislation instead of innovation is allowed to drive a manufacturing timetable.

Emissions needed to be reduced. We all know that.

But the way that industry decided to control emissions is incredibly dumb. Not only is it way too complicated, it has the built in problem that running an engine at high RPM to create heat also creates even more pollutants that have to be removed. It's chasing it's own tail.

Dumb, dumb, dumb...but well-meaning legislation, lazy engineers, and uncaring manufacturers.

It sure sounds like you have a much better solution in mind, lol. Please stop keeping it a secret from all us lazy engineers!

By the way, are all you grumpy guys in here ready for GASOLINE particulate filters coming on every new gas car as well? Because that is looking increasingly inevitable in our emissions compliance roadmap. The good news is that they don't employ active regeneration like the diesel ones need to.

...and we have the technology to put a man on the moon. Hasn't happened recently though. Can't figure out why.

To put it in simple terms, just because you CAN doesn't mean it's FEASIBLE from a cost standpoint.

I believe hydrogen was mentioned earlier in this thread. Possible? Yes. Feasible? No.

Not mentioned: nuclear FUSION. Possible? Yes. Feasible? Not even for anything but a proof of concept.

Oh, and did you hear about the perpetual motion machine that the Mayans developed before Columbus? It's really too bad the plans got buried under umpteen quadrillion tons of ash from that untimely volcano.

We haven't gone to the moon recently because it's a complete waste of time and incredibly expensive, maybe? Honestly it's pretty dang questionable that we ever went, those videos of our guys tumbling around on the moon and bombing a dune buggy around are just so ridiculous looking. Occam's razor suggests a rather disappointing conclusion.

We run hydrogen ICE engine testing in my lab now, though. It's pretty awesome, works just fine, very feasible. It's the fuel generation and distribution that is very difficult to solve (presumably what you meant).

 

[Snobdds]

Neither of those theories are correct...but both are close.

But you are right in that there is a difference in the fuels, gas or diesel, and that difference does play into how the emissions are controlled.

Here is how it works:

A gas engine always runs a bit rich - that is to say the incoming charge has more fuel than is needed in the fuel/air combustion mix. Because the mixture is rich, the engine combustion can be controlled simply by throttling the air....which means both horse power and efficiency can be raised simply by opening the throttle to add more air. As a bonus, adding more air makes the combustion more lean, it burns hotter, and burns more completely. That leads to a hotter exhaust with less particles, and makes it easier for a simple catalyst in the muffler to remove the remaining emissions from the exhaust flow.

Diesel fuel burn very differently. Diesel engines don't have a air throttle plate to regulate the amount of air coming into the intake. Their air flow in is always wide open. Because of that, diesels can't help but run on the lean side of fuel/air combustion mix. Unlike a gas engine that adds air to add power, a diesel already has all the air it needs. What it needs is more fuel to make a better fuel/air mixture. So diesels add more fuel when they want more power. That is the key thought: that adding fuel, not air, is how a diesel increases their horse power.
Adding fuel to the diesel's air/fuel mix does move the resulting fuel/air mix closer to being a perfect combustion mix, and that does gives it more power, lots more power. But the resulting fuel/air mixture loses efficiency, because the mixture is just too far on the rich side of the burn curve for complete combustion to happen. So the harder the diesel works, the more its exhaust contains incomplete combustion residue in the form or smelly acids and soot particles. In extreme cases, we call it "rolling coal". There is a lot more things to clean up in a diesel exhaust than in a gasoline engine exhaust.

That is why cleaning up diesel exhaust is more complicated than cleaning up the exhaust on gas engines.

Hope this helps,
rScotty

If a diesel runs at max air all the time, how does it throttle down? Are you saying the air at idle is the same air charge at full throttle? If a diesel has a VGT turbo, why do we have changing air efficiencies?

Diesels very much have their air metered. That is why you have a Mass air flow sensor that ties into a baro sensor that ties into the turbo, which ties into a blow off valve. Diesels are an air pump and controlling the air through controlled vacuum is very much a thing.

Diesels need heat to burn efficiently. More emissions happen before the engine is at operating temperature. Ford, GM, and Ram are all going to higher displacement engines for emissions. They can feed half the fuel for the same power, thus lower emissions with no drop off in power.

 

[Hay Dude]

Bro, no need to keep being rude about this. I only typed all that out to try to help you understand the situation more fully.

Regarding your 80/20 notion, you are squarely in the minority of Americans, actually. The vast majority of us have no issues with reliability on our vehicles and prefer cleaner exhaust coming out of truck tailpipes. So keep yelling at the clouds if it makes you feel better, but it's a shame you aren't willing to to find any nuance or common ground in this. And in the engineering community who actually produce the products you depend upon, we actually also agree and must follow public policy and regulations regardless.

Hey man, sorry if you took a beating from the majority other people on this thread that agree DPF/DEF is neither “robust or reliable”. I mean like few, if anyone agreed with you, no matter what your engineering graphs or studies say.

Like, so you are grumpy about some failing EGR valves and SCR sensors needing work occasionally.

Listen chief, you speak as if you live in a bubble in your engineering cubicle.
Several others here gave you specific failures. Few if anyone supports your loony opinion of “robust and reliable”.

The rest of us don't care, thats the price of clean air. Pass the cost of downtime on to the consumers (as you already do) and we'll pay for it. It's worth it.

I never said I don’t want clean air. So let’s stop throwing poop and seeing if it will stick. It won’t.

Might be time to get out behind the desk, take a peek in the mirror, and admit you got rolled on this one. It’s ok, we are all wrong once in a while.

 

[deezler]

Nah man, we're gonna keep moving forward. Sorry you guys hate your emissions equipment, no one wants that outcome. It's a really complicated puzzle of logistics overall, I'm only involved in one tiny part of it.

It's not all black and white though. I'm personally very glad trump's EPA is unwinding a bunch of dumb crap (start/stop, emissions de-rate timing, blocking California from screwing us all, getting rid of CAFE, I could go on). And I also hate cooled-EGR, lol. I deleted it on my VW diesel.

The only reason I jumped into this thread is to help y'all understand that DPF and SCR emissions technology is not going away; take it or leave it, but I promise that is true.

 

[Hay Dude]

“Moving forward” is great, as long as it doesn’t mean the environmentalists get everything they want, while the trucker, farmer, logger, etc get screwed.