Construction of Laminated posts for Pole Barn

[masscity]

I didn't read all of the posts. I have a Cleary PB built in 2014. They use treated 2x6 nailed together, they don't warp and they are treated completely through.

Look at the top how the trusses are set into the column and bolted. Everybody who looked at the quality of my PB liked it.

 

[CH4Ohio]

Buy Permacolumns. Have them delivered with the laminated wood already bolted / attached to the concrete end that goes into the ground. They are ready to set in your holes with concrete footers right off the truck. These are engineered and stamped with their construction details. No wood in the ground and straight square posts above ground to support your building.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Perma-columns are expensive as as get out.. I am not going to live long enough to matter, especially in the sandy soil I have.

 

[Midniteoyl]

Just nail them together? 3" galvanized, 3 nails every 10" or so. Both side for the first two boards and then just the one side for the 3rd? Or some adhesive also?

The factory made ones are usually glued together then 'cinched' together. Basically a wire that is pulled tight to hold like a screw.

If I were to make my own, I would use adhesive, some 4" screws to hold them straight and tight together (dont need many, from both sides), then pound in some 4 1/2" 30D ring shank nails for strength (2 or 3 every 18" minimum). Would be strong, IMHO.

 

[BlueKnife]

Just nail them together? 3" galvanized, 3 nails every 10" or so. Both side for the first two boards and then just the one side for the 3rd? Or some adhesive also?

I've made many of them. I use construction adhesive between each layer, then 2 1/2" screws in a zig zag pattern roughly every foot or so. This pulls the layers tight without the screws sticking all the way through the two layers and interfering with placement of the third layer. Once at least three layers are fastened together this way, I finish with 4 inch pole barn spikes, also in a zig zag pattern. I have a jumbo nail gun that will nail up to 5 1/2" spikes, so it's easy for me. It wouldn't be worth buying one for one building though. Just have to man up and hand nail it.

I have been considering different means of securing the boards. Has anyone thought about steel banding strap? I’m looking at posts 14’ long. With 3 or 4 continuous length boards, It seems a strap placed in between each wall girt would be quite suitable. Let’s hear any comments.

I'm not following you. Securing what boards? The wall girts are normally nailed to the columns (either laminated or monolithic) with pole barn spikes. No steel banding involved.

 

[CH4Ohio]

Perma-columns are expensive as as get out.. I am not going to live long enough to matter, especially in the sandy soil I have.

Maybe they are expensive . . . compared to gluing a few 2"x6"s together. I just know that I didn't want ANY wood in the ground. Maybe treated posts would outlive me, but I don't think they will outlive the rest of the building, and I don't want the foundation to be the first thing to rot off right at the top of the ground.

This isn't where I'd focus on saving money.

 

[CH4Ohio]

Perma-columns are expensive as as get out.. I am not going to live long enough to matter, especially in the sandy soil I have.

However . . . You can always order just the concrete piece with bracket attached and then make your own ABOVE-GROUND laminated column to bolt into the bracket. This would be a cheaper option.

Probably still a little expensive, but then everything costs a lot of money these days. This is just one option to keep from burying wooden posts that start rotting the day you install them.

To be honest, I didn't even compare costs on the last job we did. I just told the guy that I didn't want any wood in the ground.

 

[BlueKnife]

However . . . You can always order just the concrete piece with bracket attached and then make your own ABOVE-GROUND laminated column to bolt into the bracket. This would be a cheaper option.

I completely agree about not having wood in the ground, but there's no need to get the post bases with the concrete attached. Perma Column sells just the brackets that you can wet set into the concrete piers when you pour them. These are what I use. Brackets to connect post-frame structures to concrete foundations To be honest, I'm not quite sure why they bother making them with concrete attached. Seems like the only thing it would get you is additional shipping cost. On some jobs, I build my own brackets, since I have steel fabricating tools and ability. Downside to the ones I make is they are not powder coated, which may or may not matter, depending on the location.

I would definitely not want to get the ones with the wood part of the post attached. It's so much simpler to set the brackets precisely without a post to deal with. Then you can build the wall assembly, girts and all, while it's laying on the ground, then raise it into place and bolt it in. No temporary diagonal braces everywhere, no ladders or climbing up the wall carrying girts.

 

[Midniteoyl]

However . . . You can always order just the concrete piece with bracket attached and then make your own ABOVE-GROUND laminated column to bolt into the bracket. This would be a cheaper option.

Probably still a little expensive, but then everything costs a lot of money these days. This is just one option to keep from burying wooden posts that start rotting the day you install them.

To be honest, I didn't even compare costs on the last job we did. I just told the guy that I didn't want any wood in the ground.

The problem is the ~$300 cost, each, plus ~$300 shipping depending on where you get them. At that cost I could pour a stem wall all the way around.

 

[Midniteoyl]

 

[Midniteoyl]

I completely agree about not having wood in the ground, but there's no need to get the post bases with the concrete attached. Perma Column sells just the brackets that you can wet set into the concrete piers when you pour them. These are what I use. Brackets to connect post-frame structures to concrete foundations To be honest, I'm not quite sure why they bother making them with concrete attached. Seems like the only thing it would get you is additional shipping cost. On some jobs, I build my own brackets, since I have steel fabricating tools and ability. Downside to the ones I make is they are not powder coated, which may or may not matter, depending on the location.

I would definitely not want to get the ones with the wood part of the post attached. It's so much simpler to set the brackets precisely without a post to deal with. Then you can build the wall assembly, girts and all, while it's laying on the ground, then raise it into place and bolt it in. No temporary diagonal braces everywhere, no ladders or climbing up the wall carrying girts.

Yes. Using concrete piers is the best, cost effective way, IMO. Next would be a foundation/stem wall. Last thing I would do is use the Perma Columns.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

This pole barn was built about 4 years ago for my 30' wide cold tractor storage pole shed.
I used engineered posts factory made. 24' posts, 5 ply, 2x8's, 16' above grade, portion that made ground contact was made with pwf and above ground spf, nailed togther every 2' with 2 nails across, nailing plates exterior joints, no glue, staggered joints 2' min. as shown in pics., you can see the color change between the foundation grade wood and the non treated.
Needed to set posts almost 8 feet due to frost. No concrete or other footing required by engineer. Posts sit on 6" of 3/8 pea gravel which is also used around post so posts never touch native soil.
In our area posts like this with the gravel are spec'd and engineered to last 100 years.

 

[CH4Ohio]

The problem is the ~$300 cost, each, plus ~$300 shipping depending on where you get them. At that cost I could pour a stem wall all the way around.

I wish I had a cost breakdown showing what we paid for them. I don't. But they weren't an additional $300 each a year ago. Your basic 2x6x16' treated and laminated post is going to cost close to $100. The incremental cost of pouring a pier under it or using perma-column brackets for field assembly, or buying the post preassembled with 5' of 60,000 PSI pre-stressed concrete on the end is well worth it. There are several options for keeping the wood above ground and that's the main suggestion I was trying to get across. I think we used a total of 27 posts and it added $2-3 thousand.

As far as shipping, ours just came through the same guys that were providing the metal and lumber and got delivered with the rest of the package. I told the builder that I didn't want any wood in the ground so we added this option. It was definitely an upgrade, but I don't recall any sticker shock or discussions about this being a really expensive option.

There's just no way I'd spend a lot of money on a building and start out by sinking wooden posts into the ground. Lots of better options these days.

 

[BlueKnife]

The problem is the ~$300 cost, each, plus ~$300 shipping depending on where you get them. At that cost I could pour a stem wall all the way around.

A stem wall and dry set brackets with laminated posts is absolutely the way to go if the budget is there for it. If not though, the wet set Perma Column brackets are $70/each for the 3 ply right now. More if they need to be shipped, of course. For those without welding capability, it would still be worth checking with a local fab shop. They might be able to build them for less than the Perma Column brackets and for interior use, the powder coating isn't needed.

 

[BlueKnife]

Needed to set posts almost 8 feet due to frost. No concrete or other footing required by engineer. Posts sit on 6" of 3/8 pea gravel which is also used around post so posts never touch native soil.

Man, that's a crazy frost line! Have you ever personally seen it that deep? That has to be approaching permafrost at that point I would think.

 

[MapleLeafFarmer]

Man, that's a crazy frost line! Have you ever personally seen it that deep? That has to be approaching permafrost at that point I would think.

Yes, about 6 years ago our mainline to the house froze. it was buried 6 feet. So we replaced with a new line 8' down with in flow heat tape from well casing to the building so we should be good to go even in the coldest winters.
8' is the new code here

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[Midniteoyl]

Yes, about 6 years ago our mainline to the house froze. it was buried 6 feet. So we replaced with a new line 8' down with in flow heat tape from well casing to the building so we should be good to go even in the coldest winters.
8' is the new code here

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That's crazy..

 

[threepiece]

I've made many of them. I use construction adhesive between each layer, then 2 1/2" screws in a zig zag pattern roughly every foot or so. This pulls the layers tight without the screws sticking all the way through the two layers and interfering with placement of the third layer. Once at least three layers are fastened together this way, I finish with 4 inch pole barn spikes, also in a zig zag pattern. I have a jumbo nail gun that will nail up to 5 1/2" spikes, so it's easy for me. It wouldn't be worth buying one for one building though. Just have to man up and hand nail it.

I'm not following you. Securing what boards? The wall girts are normally nailed to the columns (either laminated or monolithic) with pole barn spikes. No steel banding involved.

I've made many of them. I use construction adhesive between each layer, then 2 1/2" screws in a zig zag pattern roughly every foot or so. This pulls the layers tight without the screws sticking all the way through the two layers and interfering with placement of the third layer. Once at least three layers are fastened together this way, I finish with 4 inch pole barn spikes, also in a zig zag pattern. I have a jumbo nail gun that will nail up to 5 1/2" spikes, so it's easy for me. It wouldn't be worth buying one for one building though. Just have to man up and hand nail it.

I'm not following you. Securing what boards? The wall girts are normally nailed to the columns (either laminated or monolithic) with pole barn spikes. No steel banding involved.

Well we are talking about the lamination of columns/posts. I was considering steel banding strap rather than adhesive. The full length boards could be nailed together to keep them in alignment while strap is applied. A strap between each girt should keep the post straight to prevent buckling.

 

[threepiece]

I plan to build next year. My plan is a variation of the Perma Column footer using a section of W 4x13 beam (H beam).

I will weld a few pieces of 1/2” steel rod across the beam near the bottom so the concrete has something to wrap around and hold. At the top will be a bolt plate with two holes to secure the bracket for attaching the wood post like a standard Perma Column.

This assembly be sandblasted and coated with three layers of epoxy prime.

With this design there is no need to completely fill the footer hole. Having concrete 4” above and 4” below the horizontal steel rods will be enough. A small capacity mixer is all that is needed.

 

[BlueKnife]

Well we are talking about the lamination of columns/posts. I was considering steel banding strap rather than adhesive. The full length boards could be nailed together to keep them in alignment while strap is applied. A strap between each girt should keep the post straight to prevent buckling.

That might work. Seems like more effort than using adhesive though. Adhesive works great.