Confirming Wire and Conduit size

[ponytug]

Thanks, Peter, as I am still in the process of putting this all together, I can consider all options. As concerns the separation, as the electrical conduit will be deeper than is required for the water lines, there will be some vertical separation. A separate electrical run will come back from the subpanel to the well area (I should have and may post a diagram as that would be helpful to explain what I am facing) and that can be adjacent to the other electrical conduit - and all put in before the water line.
I have decided to go with the detectable electrical tape - I am guessing that is what they want even though they did not specifically state that.
Putting in separate trenches for water and electrical would be a problem given the layout. The electrical and water lines come from the same location/direction for part of the run, and there is not a lot of room for a parallel trench given terrain and location of well equipment and storage tank.
The propane trench is on the other side of the house and thus separate, as is the fire water storage tank so both of those will have separate trenches.
I have had real issues finding someone up here who is dependable and so I am taking on some of this myself. We have, unfortunately, wasted months when those who say they will come, don't - or delay and reschedule. But I guess being busy is a good thing.
Appreciate the input.
Ron

I'd check on the detection tape for power, because, if it is not locally required, there is no need as @grsthegreat pointed out. I still would put down a plastic warning tape identifying power.

If double trenching is an issue, could you do a wider trench and put power on one side, and water on the other? I a just thinking ahead to potential future repairs. If your water line is to/from the well, the well control wires might help trace it in the future. (Our tanks have float switches that control the pump, but in our case the wires don't run with the pipe, which is good and bad. You can't use them to locate, but they aren't in the way when the pipe cracks or breaks.)

As we have earthquakes around here, you might want to consider an expansion fitting on the various lines, or at least laying the water pipe with squiggles to allow expansion and contraction. My understanding is that expansion fittings are not legal in some locations, and required in others. (not legal on water for the rationale of potential contamination, but required elsewhere due to soil movement risk, at least as I understand it.)

Part of my belt and suspenders approach to underground lines is that I have seen the improbable happen, often. I lived somewhere that the burial depth for pipes was 48", below the 36" frost line. The municipal main lines were 72" or deeper. Then we had a really dry fall, with basically no snow, and the frost went 120" down in January. Yeah, it was a mess throughout the whole area. I remember the plumber hooking up a welder to our street side cutoff, and to the house piping indoors and running the welder for half an hour so to thaw the metal pipes. We kept a sink dribbling until March.

All the best,

Peter

 

[grsthegreat]

On my own house, due to abundance of trees, i chose a single trench for all utilities. Trench was 36” wide. Water 5’ down to one side of trench. Fill 2 feet rock free soil. Then utility power to other side of trench with twin 1” communication conduits near water area of trench. Then 2 more feet dirt, id tape, than cover trench. I used 2 inch diameter, 1/4” thick roll poly water pipe (300’ between connections) I have never had water issues in 29 years. Used industrial rated compression stainless and brass fittings. Did not want the cheepo push insert with compression clamp. If i recall each coupler cost something like $300 29 years ago.

If i ever need to locate anything, i can send signal down wires to locate pipes.

Propane was run with signal wire

 

[beowulf]

Ok, here goes.

The FIRST panel which includes the meter AND a breaker HAS to have a ground rod or 2 and the ground wire AND the neutral have to be bound together within the panel. In other words the ground and neutral can be located on the same buss, or the neutral buss will have a green screw that attaches to the metal can.


Years and years ago, only 2 hots and a neutral had to go to any other subpanel and at the subpanels the additional ground rods and wires were again bonded together. This went away a long time ago.

Currently, EVERY OTHER subpanel HAS to have 4 wires run for single phase, 240v power. 2 hots, a neutral and a ground. Every subpanel has to have a isolated neutral buss (cant be mechanically grounded in any way) AND a grounded buss bar. The neutral and ground cannot connect together in any fashion in a subpanel.

Replying to Ponytug and grsthegreat for their posts re grounding. This is what I have: The meter (first panel/GE) has a shut off breaker and two ground rods, and my own add-in of a 20-amp breaker for a temporary 'test' circuit/outlet just below the panel box (the inspector told me to install that before he would pass it). When I installed that 20-amp breaker and outlet (outside the box) the first thing I saw was that there was only one bus. So, I checked with the guy that put the panel in - he was not certain, but he called the manufacturer of the panel and then called me and said all was fine as the ground and neutral were 'bonded' and it was supposed to be that way. So, I attached the neutral and ground to the same (and only) bus in the panel - and that was before the second inspection - which passed.
And while I thought the subpanel on the house was grounded (as I mentioned in my original post), and I saw a ground rod there before lying next to the box before it was installed, today I moved all the plastic, debris, etc. away and see no ground rod.
So, I hope this helps with the discussion. And BTW, I will be running a copper ground wire (#4 I think) from the meter panel to the subpanel - so, three 3/0 and one #4 ground in 2" conduit - maybe larger per Ponytug's suggestion.
I appreciate the comments- thank you all for reading and responding. I am educable.

 

[grsthegreat]

2” will allow 4 of the 4/0 wires, so its plenty large for 3/0 wire. 2.5” conduit is nearly double the cost of 2” where i live.

 

[grsthegreat]

The main meter panel should have ground and neutrals bonded together on same buss. So your install is fine.

So running the copper ground along with the 3 wires is fine. You just want to make sure the new house subpanel has separate ground busses and an isolated, insulated neutral lug. Keep neutrals and grounds separate on subpanels.

 

[beowulf]

The main meter panel should have ground and neutrals bonded together on same buss. So your install is fine.

So running the copper ground along with the 3 wires is fine. You just want to make sure the new house subpanel has separate ground busses and an isolated, insulated neutral lug. Keep neutrals and grounds separate on subpanels.

Got it, and thanks. I do recall that the subpanels - down line - need the separate busses- isolated. Appreciate your help.

 

[beowulf]

I'd check on the detection tape for power, because, if it is not locally required, there is no need as @grsthegreat pointed out. I still would put down a plastic warning tape identifying power.

If double trenching is an issue, could you do a wider trench and put power on one side, and water on the other? I a just thinking ahead to potential future repairs. If your water line is to/from the well, the well control wires might help trace it in the future. (Our tanks have float switches that control the pump, but in our case the wires don't run with the pipe, which is good and bad. You can't use them to locate, but they aren't in the way when the pipe cracks or breaks.)

As we have earthquakes around here, you might want to consider an expansion fitting on the various lines, or at least laying the water pipe with squiggles to allow expansion and contraction. My understanding is that expansion fittings are not legal in some locations, and required in others. (not legal on water for the rationale of potential contamination, but required elsewhere due to soil movement risk, at least as I understand it.)

Part of my belt and suspenders approach to underground lines is that I have seen the improbable happen, often. I lived somewhere that the burial depth for pipes was 48", below the 36" frost line. The municipal main lines were 72" or deeper. Then we had a really dry fall, with basically no snow, and the frost went 120" down in January. Yeah, it was a mess throughout the whole area. I remember the plumber hooking up a welder to our street side cutoff, and to the house piping indoors and running the welder for half an hour so to thaw the metal pipes. We kept a sink dribbling until March.

All the best,

Peter

Peter, it seems that the 'detectable' tape is required - and 6" wide -at least the two brands they approve apparently sell that kind of tape. I was planning on just putting in the red warning tape and only 3" wide, but unless my further reading leads me elsewhere, I think I am stuck with what they say to use. I will, however, definitely check it a bit further as I am wondering about County vs power company guidelines.

I talked to the trenching guy tonight (he comes up tomorrow) - he said it would not be a problem to make the meter to the house subpanel trench wider - as you recommended. I have to agree with you - and thanks for flagging this - a wider trench for that run will make things immensely easier.

Fortunately, we don't have any frost heave or below ground pipe freezing. And though we are in California - no earthquakes in this area - yet anyway.
Thanks for the advice - I am worrying less about the install now that the electric run trench will be wider.
Ron

 

[ponytug]

@beowulf Good luck today!

All the best, Peter

 

[caver]

COOP guy came by today. A If I have them put a pole half way and run triplex then go underground they call it a consumer pole. I'm responsible for all of that. The reason this was appealing at first was the run intersects my spring runoff if I went underground. Also he stated if they hit rock, they load up pole, refund my money for said pole and leave. This is a probability.
B If they run hy-vo to a second transformer up closer to my cabin they need a 30' clearance both sides. two very mature oaks would have to come out and I have to take them out. Plus the added expense of the non house meter mostly at idle. So he said my best option was
C underground and knowing the facts I agree.

If they run triplex that's all they run. No quad so no separate ground. He was not aware of the NEC rule which seemed to change in 2008. (I could be wrong on the year) Mike Holt has some good/interesting stuff online.
I do find it interesting when someone questions the old way and they are correct but then sometimes the old timers had it right.