Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #21  
Derek,

I'm over in the Fairfield area. Our properties sound quite a bit alike. We have just under 40 acres with steep hills, lots of rocks, and some pasture land. We are probably going to go with Kubota as the local dealer is only eight miles away.

Driver
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #22  
My brother-in-law (Alan40) lives in In Fairfield. The properties do sound a lot alike. The only thing different is our pastures are over grown by 30 to 40 years /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif. You must be talking about the dealer in St Albans? Essex Equipment gave me a better price than Bourbeau's. But I ended going with the New Holland from Bechard's in Champlain NY. Gave me really great pricing, delivered, and didn't pay sales tax. We should have a little TactorByNet cook out for the VTer's. I think we are about just over a half a dozen in a 50ish mile radius. Of course other TBNer's are allowed to come too. Enjoy the great weather!

Derek
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   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #23  
Glenmac, your points are certainly food for thought

Freedom hitch for the 3 pt. hitch takes about 7 seconds. Front loaders are available with Bobcat type hookup.

Bobcat implements almost all hook up on front, of course many of them require you to drive backwards. Very rarely do I need to look backwards to see if my mower is still following me. With no obscured front view because of a big 80" mower attached, I feel pretty safe on my hills. With 1500lbs of mower out front, I would destroy many more sprinkler heads then I already do.

Hydraulic interfaces most certainly are available, but their ineffciency is terrible compared to a mechanical linkage. You may decide to run a inefficient hydraulic motor for ease of hookup although I doubt it, sacrificing leaks, increased HP to run the much larger hyd. pump, and increased fuel consumption

JCB builds a compact with similar size tires on front and back, don't know why its not caught on with the compacts.

While articulating equipment like loaders have been around for a long time, they are not always easier on a surface. As one who drives 900 series CAT built loaders for work, I an attest to this, They are quite manuverable however. Kubota manufactuers articulating loaders as well

Cost, hmm, yes and no. At the amount produced, they are probably much cheaper then a automobile when considering autos/trucks are produced in the hundreds of thousands for each model.

Having looked at the Power Trac, I still want a compact tractor. Obviously I'm insane. Rat...
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #24  
Rat,
Went to JCBNA.com. Didn't see any compacts. Unless you consider 13000lb, 110+HP Fastrac a compact. Where did you see a JCB compact tractor?
Todd
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #25  
As a welcome respite from the events of the week, I spent part of Friday at Power Trac in Tazewell, VA. This post should perhaps be in the Good-bye Kubota thread, or the Power Trac Update thread, but I chose this one because of its theoretical breadth. As a result of my own visit, I am determined to buy a Power Trac 1430, 30 hp diesel, as soon as I can manage. If you glance at my profile, you will see quite a batch of machines (all mostly worn out). My visit to Power Trac reinforced my impression that the Power Trac machine will perform nearly every function I ask of a tractor at least as well as the machines I have experience with, but more easily, efficiently, and most importantly, safely.
First, however, a drawback. The 1430 is loud! As with many other tractors, its muffling is inadequate. When I get one, I will put another muffler in series with that which came with the Deutz diesel. It may reduce power slightly, but I want this thing for comfort, not irritation.
We do a lot of mowing - the 1430 has a 6 foot rear discharge finish mower with cut quality and maneuverability about equal to the Jacobsen Turf-Cat II front mower which is our best. The Power Trac has more power, and will cut faster, but as smoothly. The finish mower and the 60" rough cut mower (brush hog) are at least as well built as any I've seen. Grease fittings are where they belong - everywhere. (See Goodbye Kubota thread.) I need the 1430, or the smaller gasoline machine or the larger 1460 or 1800 series for the slope mowing capability. For that I have to give up the backhoe on the 2400 series, but I think I can mount a small digger up front, adapting a 3-point mount to the quick attach mechanism.
I played with and observed the quick attach functions, and hate 3-point hitches even more than before. A switch from any Power Trac implement to any other takes no more than 30 seconds, and includes no blood blisters, strained backs, mashed feet or other built-in characteristics of the beloved 3-point mechanism. You may have to leave the tractor to attach two primary PTO hydraulic hoses, and maybe the two secondary hoses, if the implement requires. On the 425, you can do even those from the machine, by standing and leaning over. Sometimes, when really lucky, I have attached a PTO shaft more quickly that I could plug in two hydraulic quick disconnects. Those times are fewer than those where aligning the splines required a bit more time - or trip to the bin of levers and beating tools.
With the grapple bucket, the 1430 digs as well as our JD 2240, and will pick up a pile of brush with ease. With the posthole auger, even the little 425 digs a 9" hole, 3' deep in reasonably tough soil, in about 45 seconds.
All the controls are easy to work with.
The apparent build quality is very good - an appropriate word for all of the machines and attachments is "stout." Power Trac makes all its own implements because third party supplied implements haven't been built well enough or consistently enough to suit the boss.
Some time ago on this thread, there were some attempts at cost comparison. I haven't tried to refine those. My impression is that costs may be roughly comparable for comparable horsepower. Power Trac implements are generally more expensive, particularly where hydraulic PTO is used in place of gearboxes. The costs comparisons, however, should be done against top line implements, and should assume a Freedom Hitch assembly or equivalent for each implement.
Use of hydraulics is less efficient than gears. Because of the configuration, however, I'll bet that Power Trac actually is able to apply as much power to the job as conventional tractors. The whole system is well designed and thought out, and not constrained to retrofit to systems designed early last century.
I am sorry for the long post, but it has kept my mind off terrorism for a few minutes, and back on our mutual recreation - machines to play, er, work with.

Charlie Iliff
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong
  • Thread Starter
#26  
I want to add another item to the list of deficiencies--namely, that compact tractors are ill-designed for serious brush cutting.

The underside of grandpa's ag tractor may never have touched anything more solid than amber waves of grain. However, the scaled down versions we call compact tractors are used by many of us for serious brush clearing. They are inadequate for this chore because of their completely exposed underbellies.

In cutting about 4 acres of very dense and stubborn brush I have torn apart or torn off just about everything underneath my 2910: brake linkages, hydraulics, cruise control linkages, mid mower linkages, crumpled up the entire operator foot deck, ripped off the toolbox mounted underneath the fender, and ripped off every pin on the tractor, 3ph and implement multiple times. Admittedly, I could have been gentler on the tractor, but the object was to complete the job. As it was, it took about 10 full days to clear those 4 acres.

Tractors should have full length skid plates as standard equipment or at least as a priced options. Neither is available to my knowledge from any of the manufacturers. I understand the Power Trac has a completely smooth steel underbelly, which is the way it should be.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #27  
Look at the armor option for the JD 4000 series (not that I disagree with you that they are not as bullet [brush] proof as we wish them to be) and develop some new tactics in brush cutting that will keep the brush out from under the tractor (for the most part). Sounds like you might be that proverbial "bull in the china shop" (kidding here), with all the trouble you have keeping your tractor together
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #28  
Glenn:
I didn't see anything under the Power Tracs that could be damaged. It is flat heavy steel plate. For your job, I think even one of the small Power Tracs with a rotary cutter, stump grinder and grapple bucket would have done the job with ease and no equipment damage. Too bad we can't set up some comparison tests head to head.
What we need to do is get MChalkley to buy his Power Trac equipment without selling his Kubota stuff, and then a group of us can get together and clear some land and mow some grass with his stuff and keep careful records of various parameters and equipment damage so we can declare a proper winner of the evaluation.


Charlie Iliff
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #29  
Hey those are interesting looking critters, kind of like what the result would be if a typical compact tractor and a skid-steer had an offspring together.

I found them at http://www.power-trac.com

I don't know if I'd want to take one of them everywhere I've taken by FordNH or the Kubota L35 though.

del
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #30  
Del:
I think one of the things I liked best about the Power-Trac is the perception that I could safely take it a lot of places I wouldn't risk with conventional tractors. When I was a kid, I took a John Deere B and a Farmall 450 on hills that I won't now go near with a John Deere 2240 or 950, both of which are infinitely safer than the old machines. The Power Trac has a much lower CG, 4wd with real tires up front and really solid ROPS/FOPS. With the hydraulic drive, there is no necessity of shifting gears in tight situations, and markedly reduced chance of sliding with the rear tires locked up. That ride is always uncomfortable, and sometimes seriously dangerous. I can't think of a situation where I'd be more comfortable on a conventional tractor.
A question for you: Knowing what you know now, would you take the FordNH or the Kubota L35 everywhere you've taken them? I spend some time periodically warning my sons not to do things I've done - with and without a tractor. I can justify the Power Trac for the increased safety for them. Now all I need is to find the money.

Charlie Iliff
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #31  
Neat machines.
If we had local dealers, I'd have considered getting one.
Just not a fan of mail order tractors unless they want to sell me an on-site service plan cheap. Don't believe they'll have the same re-sale as my b2710 either.
Todd
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #32  
I to like the Power-Trac. The smaller models, 418-425 are priced better than any compact. $6000. for a PT418 is great. "Sir" McChaulky has found "EarthForce" for us. It combines old world technology with a few improvements. Priced from the mid 20's on up they come with a loader and a hoe. All but the smallest 2 come with articulated frames. $30,000. for a 34.5hp with TLB, new! I'll take one or two. Bob
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #33  
You make some excellent points which has made for an interesting thread. I have a few observations to offer.

1. You specifically mention compact tractors. Most of what you point out would apply to all tractors of any size. Not a major point, I know but it does spread the blame out a lot thinner!

2. We will lose the 3 pt hitch system about the same time the country goes completely metric.

3. Freedom Hitch has added your name to their list of renegade subversives.

4. I would never attempt to cut 4 acres of heavy brush with a mid-mower compact tractor. I have accomplished similar tasks in less than a day on a 1961 2wd Ford Tractor, 60 HP with a 6 ft bush hog.

None the less your comments are true and insightful. Now the next time I bush hog, instead of fantasizing about Michelle Pheiffer I will be forced to think about the inefficiencies of my equipment! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Reminds me of the preacher who bought an old gas push mower from a local family. When he couldn't get it started, they explained to him that it was temperamental and they found that cussing at it was the only way to get it to work. He told them "I have been a man of God for over thirty years and not once during that time have I ever cursed. I don't think I even remember how". They told him "Just keep pulling that rope, it'll come back to you"! /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #34  
Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong-Not Michelle!

michellepfeiffer8.jpg


Tony...my mind just went blank on changing compact tractors... but you sure got great taste in women... /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

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   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #35  
Re: Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong-Not Michelle!

AAAAhhhhhhhhhh. Thanks John for effectively deprogramming me and getting my thoughts back to the things that are important in life. After looking at her my 3 pt hitch seems like a brilliant feet of engineering. Thanks for the new computer wallpaper too! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #36  
I just looked at the Power Trac web site and there are a lot of things I like about it, but I don’t see it replacing my Boomer. Some implements work better on the back such as a moldboard plow or tiller or you would be driving on the plowed or tilled ground. Other implements will work well in the front at times, but will be better in the back at other times, such as a landscape rake when making the final pass before seeding grass or you would compact the soil after raking it. So, the ideal tractor would have to be bi-directional, like the New Holland TV140 discussed earlier.

The small tires on the Power Trac and the low profile are great for mowing on slopes, but the lack of ground clearance would cause problems. I would bottom out in several areas. Also, the small diameter tires will not provide as much traction as large diameter tires.

It’s seems to me that a smaller version of the New Holland TV140 would be the way to go. Stick with PTO shafts to keep the cost under control. I don’t mind the 3pt hitch. That way folks could buy the tractor and still use their existing equipment while they gradually switched over to front mount mowers, etc. It would probably even be cost effective to modify existing rear mount mowers and other equipment to work on the front. For example, the gear box on a finish mower could be rotated 180 degrees and the 3pt hitch brackets relocated to the back of the mower.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #37  
<font color=orange>The small tires on the Power Trac and the low profile are great for mowing on slopes, but the lack of ground clearance would cause problems. I would bottom out in several areas. Also, the small diameter tires will not provide as much traction as large diameter tires.
</font color=orange>


Thanks Mosey, I was thinking that. The idea is very attractive, but the execution doesn't do it for me. I am imagining being in the woods, hauling firewood with an industrial forklift. Better bring a winch! They're probably excellent in their pictured element: open, even ground (not necessarily level). I didn't see any aggresive tires.

I like the idea of equal tire sizes, and the turning radius question above could be solved by slightly increasing axle width, and reducing tire size, or by simply increasing wheelbase. I considered the Pasquali's, too; does anyone know how to find them? I've only found references to them on YT message threads. They appear to be better suited to woods or rough ground work.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #38  
I just found several threads on link to all sorts of different tractor sites.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #39  
TO BE PERFECTLY HONEST I DON'T THINK YOU'VE DONE ALL THE NECESSARY RESEARCH. IF YOU LOOK AT ALL THE FACTORS AND IDEAS YOU HAVE FOR THESE NEW TRACTORS YOU WILL UNDERSTAND YOU WILL HAVE TO BE ABOUT DOUBLE THE PRICE. THE IDEA I FOUND MOST AMUSSING, WAS MAKING ALL WHEELS THE SAME SIZE. IF YOU REALLY THINK ABOUT THAT, IN MOST CASES THE WEEKEND WARRIOR NEEDS A SMALL AND MANUVERABLE TRACTOR. IF ALL WHEELS WERE THE SAME SIZE, YOU WOULD NEED 20 ACRES JUST TO TURN AROUND. ONE THINK I URGE YOU TO KEEP IN MIND WHEN YOU LOOK AT THESE TRACTORS THAT FIT YOUR DESCRIPTION, IS WHO MANUFACTURES THEM. WHEN YOU ARE MAKING AN IVESTMENT LIKE THESE YOU SHOULD HAVE THE PEACE IF MIND TO KNOW THAT THE MANUFACTURER WILL STAND BEHIND THE MACHINE WITH PARTS AND SERVICE FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, AND TO BE HONEST THAT IS UNLIKELY FROM SOME OF THESE MANUFACTURERS.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #40  
Glenn,

Let's hope that PT can cross the chasm and develop a loyal following. Change is always challenged by the majority as this eventually requires action.

To change this market will take years, and it will come, but the mainstream market need to make competitive offerings with PT as imitation is the best form of flattery.

Carl
 

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