Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong

   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #41  
Theres a good reason why a brush mowert is on the back of a tractor. Its so you an see the stumps and holes when your in tall grass. The power company here has a TV140 bi directional tractor ive operated befor with a Brown Brush cutter mounted on the rear. when in that mode your high enough to look over but sometimes thats not even enough.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #42  
After a year or so of more experience, I still would like to see a better design for our uses. A few days ago I mowed a field of tall grass (5' timothy) with some brush and small trees starting to come up using my rotary cutter. Once again, I have rows of grass that didn't get mowed because the tractor tires mashed it down first, so now it's starting to stand back up and makes it look like my mower needs the blades sharpened, even though they're sharp. There are many times when a mower, both a finish mower and a rotary cutter, needs to be on the front of the tractor. I re-read my statement from about a year ago and still agree with what I said, which is "a smaller version of the New Holland TV140 would be the way to go." I guess some type of quick hitch would also be better than the 3pt.

Also, after hanging around at TBN for a while, I can see there are lots of folks like me that have a need to offset a mower to be able to mow over ditches and the edge of a lake. So, some sort of mower design that would allow this would be useful. But, it would have to be less expensive than the heavy duty side mount mowers the road commission uses.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #43  
<font color="blue"> Once again, I have rows of grass that didn't get mowed because the tractor tires mashed it down first... </font>
Thinking out loud here since I am not a mower engineer, /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

The 'problem' with a rotary cutter is the blade design, might also be an issue with the deck design. It's a flat blade with no 'wing' on the trailing edge. I was under the impression that the 'wing' on the blade, in combination with the design of the deck, creates a vacuum or a turbulence under the deck that lifts the grass, including the grass that was flattened by the front wheels, before the blade cuts the grass. Although, I'm not sure there's enough vacuum under any deck to lift up flattened 5 foot tall timothy. /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

Mossroad has some good videos on his web site of the front mounted mower on his PowerTrac.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #44  
Actually, my mower came with the option for three different lift abilities. low, medium and high. High lift blades will indeed pull the grasses up as well as loose material like sand. They recommend high lift when you need to really lift the grass and don't have sand that will also be disturbed. I have medium lift blades and experience none of the tire mashing problems mentioned. Mower is a Landpride 84" RFM, I also have an 80" offset brush mower from Woods, Rat...
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #45  
<font color="blue"> Mower is a Landpride 84" RFM </font>
That's the key, a finish mower. Mosey was using a rotary cutter.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #46  
"Once again, I have rows of grass that didn't get mowed because the tractor tires mashed it down first, so now it's starting to stand back up and makes it look like my mower needs the blades sharpened, even though they're sharp. There are many times when a mower, both a <font color="blue"> </font> finish mower <font color="blue"> </font> and a rotary cutter, needs to be on the front of the tractor. "


If my finish mower were on the front, you would then see the grass pushed down from the tractor. Not that it matters for me, but I also think about the amount of dust that I occasionally stir up. I'll plan on keeping everything hooked up on the back.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #47  
Rat - "If my finish mower were on the front, you would then see the grass pushed down from the tractor."

True, but at least it would be cut, so when it stands back up again it would not be noticed.

Mike - Good point about the suction. My finish mower has lots of that, and the rotary cutter has some. But, the suction doesn't work nearly as good when the mower is at a higher cut height, since the air is not contained under the deck. Last year I mowed at a lower height, but then the grass clumped up really bad and left big windrows. So, this time I mowed it higher and got much less clumping and windrows, but have more uncut grass. Maybe what I need is one of the paddle type wheels like they have on a combine to stand the grass back up again before it gets to the mower. I'd get a few double takes with that I bet! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #48  
With my mower set fairly high, I still have a decent amount of lift, it may be a combination of my blades, my grass and the design of the mower deck. I have not experienced the problem your having. There are times my grass is 2 feet high. I think I mow about 4". Rat
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #49  
</font><font color="blue" class="small">( With my mower set fairly high, I still have a decent amount of lift, it may be a combination of my blades, my grass and the design of the mower deck. I have not experienced the problem your having. There are times my grass is 2 feet high. I think I mow about 4". Rat )</font>

Are you talking about your finish mower? If so, I agree, my LandPride finish mower is not a problem. But, I don't mow 5' grass with it - I use the KingKutter rotary cutter for that.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #50  
Yeah Mosey, I was talking about the finish mower. I could definitely see a problem mowing 5' grass/weeds with a rear mount and having the tractor mash the weeds down. I really never have an issue like that here. I was kinda addressing the whole "compact tractors are designed all wrong" heading here. I have very few things on my tractor that I would like to have changed. It's been a really great setup. Rat.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #51  
Rat - "I have very few things on my tractor that I would like to have changed. It's been a really great setup."

I agree CUTs are a nice setup. The "engineer" in me just makes me always want to find ways to improve things.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #52  
You and MChalkey share some of the same traits. I have done a few things that while not an improvement, are more tailored to my desires. The TnT was one of them. The factory TnT is not where I like to have them. I made up my own TnT valve braket. It's set up more like the way a person might place their right arm while backing up a car for any distance.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #53  
Well, I'm reviving a 5 year old thread this evening. Why??? Because there seems to be some folks doing research on what should be changed on current tractors. Go to the start of the thread and read it all the way through. Good reading and you'll see the names of some folks that haven't been around for while and some folks that are still here.

Old posters never die... they just smell that way.:p
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #55  
Old posters never die... they just smell that way.:p

Do you mean that old posters who stopped posting smell dead?

Or that the old posters still posting smell dead?

:D:D:D

Later,
Dan
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #58  
Well, I'm reviving a 5 year old thread this evening. Why??? Because there seems to be some folks doing research on what should be changed on current tractors. Go to the start of the thread and read it all the way through. Good reading and you'll see the names of some folks that haven't been around for while and some folks that are still here.

Old posters never die... they just smell that way.:p

I talked to HARV a some months back. He is doing well. He is very very busy with a small business, kids etc. Unfortunatley, that keeps him from the property, and tractor time.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #59  
Also, after hanging around at TBN for a while, I can see there are lots of folks like me that have a need to
offset a mower to be able to mow over ditches and the edge of a lake.
1*So, some sort of mower design that would allow this would be useful.
2* But, it would have to be less expensive than the heavy duty side mount mowers the road commission uses.
1*I would like to hang a mower off to the side for that.
2*I don't see why it couldn't be done with just a simple old walk behind push mower.
 
   / Compact Tractors are Designed All Wrong #60  
Having some experience under my belt, I am even more convinced now than I was when I began looking at tractors a year ago that the design of compact tractors, for us weekend diggers as opposed to real farmers, is all wrong. It is a design that has devolved, in an anti-Darwinian fashion, from a series of historical compromises and from blind mimicry of grandpa's agricultural tractor.

Here is a list of the design flaws and the obvious remedies:

1. The 3ph is an abomination. It is an historical industry compromise that, like all compromises, is a mediocrity at best. It is the interface that has launched a thousand hernias (and a googolplex cursewords). It needs to be replaced by the kind of simple, 30-second attachment interface that skidsteers have.

At the time it was introduced it was a Gift from Above. Before that all tractor companies had their own line of implements, and using one on any ohter tractor was a nightmare.

With the various quick connect systems, some of the pain is relieved. Much of the rest of the pain can be relieved by hanging your implements instead of parking them.

If a consortium of manufacturers got together to make pairs of adapter plates -- one master that attached to the 3PH, and a slave plate that attached to every implement you would get the conversion at the cost of only a few hundred bucks per implement, plus possibly the need for some longer PTO shafts.

2. Mowers should be on the front of a tractor. This is so for both finish mowers and brush mowers. It is also so for snow blades and snowblowers. Having any of these in the middle or back of the tractor is inefficient, clumsy, and puts you in the hospital for with neck problems in addition to your hernia. The solution is having fully independent attachment interfaces on both ends of the tractor. Thus, for example, you could have the mower on the front and the FEL on the back as your "regular" set-up. This would also have the virtue of eliminating the need for clunky, useless counterweights for the rear of the tractor such as weight boxes, concrete-filled cans or trendy boxblades.

Certain an option. A mower for the front has to be a different design, Would certainly make mowing easier.

The FEL arms would make it tricky to get to my seat.

3. This naturally means you should be able to swivel the driver's seat around and drive in either direction. Thereby, your FEL or hoe would then be in front of you for proper operation, with the mower (or other useful implement) then becoming the "rear" counterweight.

Seat flipping means duplicate controls (Have you priced 4 gang hydraulic valves lately) which also means greater complexity.

4. The power connection to the attachment interfaces should be hydraulic, not mechanical. Just one-second quick-connect couplers. No more dangerous, twirling pto shafts to to catch your lovebead neckaces and choke you to death. No more clumsy, heavy implement shafts. No more lining up splines, or fiddling with collars and buttons.

Hydraulic power is substantially more expensive. It's also a lot less efficient 20-50% less efficient. Which means you need a bigger engine, a big hydraulic pump. Which makes it more expensive.

I turn my PTO off before connecting anything to it. If you don't use breakaway safety love beads, you won't choke. Far more likely to have your neck broken as you wrap around some really high torque. But I get your meaning.

My deutz when the PTO is disenganged has a spline shaft that rotates slowly -- about 2 rpm -- with about a pound of torque. Makes lining up splines a piece of cake. Some of the PTO shafts are awkward to engage in the confined space of the PTO shield. I agree that needs work.

5. All wheels should be the same size. Small front wheels are (for us weekend diggers) a largely useless artifact of agricultural crop row navigation. Might as well put sundials on tractors. Having equal wheel sizes would have many benefits. There would be a larger tractor footrprint and hence greater overall floatation. There would be less scuffing of lawns and imprinting in soils, and less sinking into wet soils and mud, because it is the small front tires that are the primary culprits in these matters. You could change tire sizes without worrying about differing 4wd circumference ratios between the front and rear wheels. You could fill all four tires for more traction and stability, and be driving an overall more weight-balanced vehicle. You would have better traction in 4wd, which should be significant in mud and snow applications.

I disagree. Front wheel assist on both my Deutz 6250 (A utility, not a compact) and my kubota B7100 is very valueable. Larger wheels would require the articulated steering to have a reasonable steering radius.

6. Because mowing is a primary activity of compact users, these tractors should all articulate. This means they pivot in the middle to promote ease of turning and driving.

Now you have to have a hinge that will have a huge amount of torque on it when using any large front or rear mounted heavy object. Take anohter look at the frame. There is a reason that tractors are not made with unibody sheet tin construction. Take another look at articulated loaders. Look at the size of the castings needed for the articulation.

7. They should be significantly cheaper than they are. Why should a small compact tractor cost more than a compact car? Tractors are 1930 technology, for goodness sakes, and have relatively few parts. Something is wrong. They are way overpriced.

The New Holland Tractor I want -- with bi-directional driving, PTO and hydraulics at both ends --- was only $120,000 last time I looked.

Sigh.

According to U of Nebraska even 30 years ago a tractor's average life span was 12,000 hours. A car driven at 40 mph (average of city and country) for 12,000 hours would cover half a million miles. Tractors are abused, neglected, run on bad roads, left out in the rain sometimes for months at a time.

Another way to look at it is the price per pound. I've had two tractors and a riding mower. All of them cost about $3.50 per pound 2nd hand. New they were about 3 times that.

Having been on sabbatical from this forum for several months, I am pleased to observe that there is now an American-made product that cures most of these problems and meets most of these objectives: the Power-Trac, courageously purchased by Willingtonpizza. Having reviewed the Power-Trac on their website, it is obvious that there is no sane reason anymore to purchase the historically-flawed compact tractor.

You all may disgree with this, of course.

I think you have some good ideas.

The compact tractor is a crummy lawnmower. Or it's a crummy tractor. Almost all users will do better to get a utility tractor and a ZTR lawnmower. It will be cheaper, and will allow you to do a better job of both.
 

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