Cold Weather Starting

[ponytug]

Exactly!

The hairdryer on the air intake idea is what the Cummins diesel does, rather than using glow plugs, although implemented as a monolithic, low temperature block that heats all of the air. The Deutz heater fingers are a similar idea, but not quite as elegant, albeit much simpler.

My only concern in all of this is combining hot, hot wires with flammable vapors, which has the real potential for ugly outcomes. Can you say "Bang! Whoooosh!"? It would be good to bear in mind gasoline's low flash point of 246F.

The low temperature ceramic heaters are intrinsically somewhat safer than hair dryers since the heating elements are much cooler, and therefore less likely to ignite gasoline vapors. This may be the reason why Cummins went with a lower temperature air heater.

All the best,

Peter

...Moss, could you use a torpedo heater to heat the engine? Would a hair dryer on the air intake help. Has anyone tried that? Preheat the intake for a few minutes and keep it blowing while cranking. You could also preheat the fuel line and help a little more.

 

[cqaigy2]

Does your motor cycle have to drive a hydraulic pump when cranking?

No it was foot/leg cranked and you had to have it in neutral, not just have the clutch disengaged because it was oil bath and the drag was horrendous at those low temps . As a matter of fact, it would jump forward when shifting into gear, so you had to be ready to go.

 

[PILOON]

A clutch between the engine and the pumps would be nice, but......

It would probably require a longer tub. Those clutches take up space. Like anything else, it would increase costs, and PTs would have to be priced higher.

If I needed to operate my PT-425 in real cold weather, I would try one of these suspended in the tub with a thermal blanket over the machine.

For sure trying to spin a hydraulic pump that is full of molassis would be tough.

How about a magnetic block heater?
That is presuming the hydraulic tank is steel, if not attach it to the pump, that's steel!

Also do you guys use winter wt hydraulic oil? ATF qualifies as hydraulic oil and that what is used on all pickup truck plow systems.

 

[MossRoad]

Does your motor cycle have to drive a hydraulic pump when cranking? Basically the starter motors are sized to start a cold engine with no mechanical load, although the larger starter on on my Robin engine did not seem to help. After one failure to start, I moved the machine back to the heated garage.

Moss, could you use a torpedo heater to heat the engine? Would a hair dryer on the air intake help. Has anyone tried that? Preheat the intake for a few minutes and keep it blowing while cranking. You could also preheat the fuel line and help a little more.

Sure. I could use a torpedo heater and a long thermal hose to direct the heat into the engine compartment. However, the plastic fuel tank kind of scares me. I think the real problem is what you stated... the thing has to not only turn the engine over, but all of the very thick, frozen hydro fluid as well. Just too much of a load for the starter to spin. I really, really wonder if switching the hydro fluid to a multi-viscosity oil would help in this situation. I need to do some pouring experiments in my garage this weekend. It is supposed to get down to 0 again. I think I will try to dip out some of my current fluid from the hydro reservior with a clean turkey baster and do a side by side pour test with a know quantity of that VS some Mobil1 and see what happens. If it is really noticable to the eye, I may switch. But man! That is going to be some $$$ for 10 gallons of Mobil1.

 

[SnowRidge]

There are cheaper synthetics and part synthetics out there. Why go the Mobil 1 route in the hydraulic system? It doesn't doesn't take nearly the beating that engine oil takes.

BTW, Tractor Supply has Rotella T full synthetic 5W-40 for $28.95 a gallon. How much is Mobil 1?

 

[KentT]

There are cheaper synthetics and part synthetics out there. Why go the Mobil 1 route in the hydraulic system? It doesn't doesn't take nearly the beating that engine oil takes.

What synthetics offer is that they maintain their viscosity when hot much better than dino oils, and being a blend (i.e. 10W-40, 15W-50, etc.) they are relatively thin (the first number) at lower temps, yet maintain their viscosity (the second number) durring the summer in hard work when oil temps can reach the 150 degree F temp range.

I compared the viscosity of hydraulic fluids, dino oils, synthetics, and synthetic blends at that 150 degree range when I was deciding what to change to... I also looked at the shear ratings, which are important in both potential for foaming and cavitation. None of the hydraulic fluids I could find, including Amsoil synthetic hydraulic fluid, would come close to the ratings of the synthetic engine oils for either viscosity or shear-strength when hot.

IMO, if you go to hydraulic fluids (vice an engine oil, whether synthetic or dino) you'll be disappointed in the summer -- especially those with the old PT 400-series running the White RS wheel motors. Moving from the original dino oil to 20W-50 synthetic Amsoil made a noticeable improvement in my wheel motor performance when hot. I'm now using Mobil 1 15W-50 to replenish after filter changes, but am quite satisfied with my change and my investment. Note that I could buy Amsoil pure sythetic by the case for roughly the same price WalMart sells the Mobil 1 blend per gallon -- so the $$ was a wash for the initial change.

To start my PT-425 the last couple of weeks (with some single-digit sub-zero mornings), I'd run my torpedo heater directed toward the oil tank from about 6 feet away, for about five minutes. It would bring the cold steel tank up to "warm to the touch" level -- then the PT would start with no complaints...

YMMV...

 

[KentT]

There are cheaper synthetics and part synthetics out there. Why go the Mobil 1 route in the hydraulic system? It doesn't doesn't take nearly the beating that engine oil takes.

BTW, Tractor Supply has Rotella T full synthetic 5W-40 for $28.95 a gallon. How much is Mobil 1?

The last I bought at WalMart was $23 and change -- under $24 -- but that was several months ago. I haven't checked recently. I now use it in the Kohler and to top of the hydraulic system after filter changes.

 

[SnowRidge]

The last I bought at WalMart was $23 and change -- under $24 -- but that was several months ago. I haven't checked recently. I now use it in the Kohler and to top of the hydraulic system after filter changes.

I just don't see the point of paying a premium price for the Mobil 1 name, versus other synthetics.

 

[cqaigy2]

So it seems the consensus that most of the cold starting problems are at 'lower' temperatures where the drag of the hydraulic system puts a strain on an already hard starting condition?

Scotchers problem with starting doesn't seem like a problem most are talking about. His seems more of a fuel/air or ignition issue.

 

[MossRoad]

There are cheaper synthetics and part synthetics out there. Why go the Mobil 1 route in the hydraulic system? It doesn't doesn't take nearly the beating that engine oil takes.

BTW, Tractor Supply has Rotella T full synthetic 5W-40 for $28.95 a gallon. How much is Mobil 1?

Last I checked, about $6.00 a quart, or $24.00 a gallon.

 

[MossRoad]

So it seems the consensus that most of the cold starting problems are at 'lower' temperatures where the drag of the hydraulic system puts a strain on an already hard starting condition?
...

I'd say so for me.

 

[Bob999]

So it seems the consensus that most of the cold starting problems are at 'lower' temperatures where the drag of the hydraulic system puts a strain on an already hard starting condition?

Not in my view. I think the problem is a combination of things:
1. Reduced battery power due to low temperature of battery;
2. Reduced volatility of the fuel;
3. Increased drag from cold engine oil;
4. Increased drag from cold hydraulic fluid; and
5. Reduced cranking speeds due to several of the above factors.

In sum, I think it is unlikely that attacking only one of the issues will resolve starting problems at very low temperatures. On the other hand one approach resolves all issues at the same time--raising the temperature of the unit.

 

[SpringHollow]

on my tractor, i used a couple of magnetic heaters on the hydraulic reservoir - clamped to the bottom, turned on by a timer for an hour or so before when i would usually be home to plow. Made a noticeable improvement.

Ken

 

[BobRip]

Could you run the thick stuff in the Summer and thin stuff in the winter. Store the out of season stuff.

I don't see the problem with the torpedo heater, since it warms mostly the hydraulic tank, but also the rest of the equipment at least some. It would also warm the battery.
The two magnetic heaters seems very safe, it just takes some time. We are getting some good ideas here. I may get a second magnetic heater, just in case.

 

[MossRoad]

Went browsing at the auto parts store tonight. YIKES! All synthetic oils are $6.99 a QT!!!

They did have some 0W 40, though. That sounds interesting.

 

[cqaigy2]

Not in my view. I think the problem is a combination of things:
1. Reduced battery power due to low temperature of battery;
2. Reduced volatility of the fuel;
3. Increased drag from cold engine oil;
4. Increased drag from cold hydraulic fluid; and
5. Reduced cranking speeds due to several of the above factors.

In sum, I think it is unlikely that attacking only one of the issues will resolve starting problems at very low temperatures. On the other hand one approach resolves all issues at the same time--raising the temperature of the unit.

Thanks Bob for being more specific then my "an already hard starting condition"

 

[ldabe]

Well, since the last time I posted, I changed the gas in the 422, and also added some dry gas to the fuel.
The 422 started up, and I used it for about 40 minutes before it began the "sputter" again! So, limped back to the garage.
Was not able to work on it or even try to run it again for about another week (today).
Today, I fired it up again. It ran fine in the driveway for about 5 minutes (after idling for about 5 min.
So, a friend in need with bad hips needed some snow removal from his place. Loaded 422 up on trailer, went to his place, started right up, pushed and moved snow for about 10 minutes and the "sputter" begins! And dies! Did this about 2-3 more times as I try to limp my way back onto the trailer. Finally sputters long enough to get it back on.

I WILL NEVER HAVE ANOTHER "ROBINS/SUBARU" ENGINE AGAIN IN MY ENTIRE LIFE!

Sorry guys, but had to get that out. If for nothing else, just for the record.

Well, got it home, went to start it to take it off the trailer, but could not get it started.
Just as well, it needs to see a mechanic (which I am not). But I think it is the carb.

Never...let me repeat that...never, get anything with a ROBINS ENGINE.

 

[SpringHollow]

Sure it is not trash in the gas tank, line, or carburetor?

 

[SnowRidge]

Sure it is not trash in the gas tank, line, or carburetor?

Or clogged gas cap vent? I have had both the clogged cap vent and trash in the tank outlet elbow give me the same symptoms.

 

[Central_PA_Chris]

When my 425 is cold and doesn't want to start I jump it and it fires right up. I think I initially assumed it was a battery issue. Anyone want to tell me jump starting is bad? Only needed to do it 4 or so times as I generally don't use it in winter and when I want to use it it's in the local repair shop anyways (They tell me it's fixed, gotta chip the ice off the trailer and go get it this week, cross your fingers for me!). After this thread, I'll probably do the ceramic heater in the engine compartment trick.