CNC plasma choice

[muddstopper]

I have been thininking about buying a plasma table for a while now. When I first started looking, a hobbiest machine started at around $10,000 for a complete system, including software. After taking a second look, it seems prices might be comeing down a little bit. Maybe now is the time to take the plunge.

I already own a miller 625 plasma cutter with hand torch, what I am looking for is a table, and of course, software, that I can add to this machine to do art work in thin sheets, and maybe fabbing up 1/4-1/2 inch thick brackets for farm or car projects. I also want software that is easy to learn since i dont know squat about machine software.

I have looked at some of the 2x2 and 4x4 machines, but would like to be able to load a 4x8 sheet of material. This is because my "steal" supplier usually charges the price of a whole sheet if they have to cut it. He wanted $62 for a 12ft piece of 3x3 tube and $69 for a 20ft stick. I bought a 15ft drop for $35, dont ask me to explain it, I cant. I figure if I am going to pay for the whole piece I might as well buy whole pieces and cut them myself.

I would like opinions on make and models from actual owners of their Plasma cnc tables. Likes dislikes, If they had to do it over again, what would they do different. Any accessories they feel is a must have. How hard is the software to learn, price of the machine, and anything else a dummy needs to ask but doesnt know to.

Thanks

 

[jimcolt]

I own both a PlasmaCam 4 x 4 table (equipped with Powermax85 plasma) and a Torchmate 2 x 4 with AVHC (height control and Powermax45 plasma). I have owned the PlasmaCam (model DHC2) for over 10 years (had their earlier model 98Z first), and have had the Tochmate for about 1 year.

They are both great machines....here are some comments about each:

PlasmaCam DHC2. This is a 4 x 4 machine that comes standard with a really nice automatic torch height control system. Thes machines start at about $6800 now....but I suggest you upgrade the software to the point where it has full height control and plate sensing functionality. I paid $9900 for mine......now they are cheaper, but to get the same level of height control you have to get the right version of their "Design Edge" software. The software is extremely easy to learn and easy to use....even for someone that has never done CAD drawing. The machine comes with slats and an open bottom.....so no fume control. You must close in the bottom with sheet metal and duct it to at least a 3000 cfm blower or fan to move the smoke outside. With my Hypertherm Powermax85 I cut from thin gauge (26 gauge) to 3/4" with no issues.....I can cut thicker with an edge start just have not had the need. Cut quality is excellent. On thin gauge materials this machine has the ability to cut with good quality up to about 280 inches per minute....it uses servo drives which have a performance advantage over the stepper drives on the Torchmate.

Torchmate 2 x4 . I bought this machine with the Torchmate water table. It comes without slats.....so I fabricated slats from 14 gauge steel. The water tray allows water up to the bottom of the steel and controls fumes quite well. The water does splash on the torch , machine and materials being cut....and the slats have gotten fairly rusty. I use an electric stock tank heater in the water tray in winter (N.H.) in my shop as it is not heated when I am not there. I find that the software included with Torchmate has the ability to draw about anything.....although I found it much more difficult to learn....and I spend much more time at the machine setting up cut parameters and getting the torch and materials in the correct location for best material optimization....the PlasmaCam sems easier from this respect. Cut quality is nice on thicker materials, although the water creates a rougher cut edge.....lower the water and the edge gets smoother, but there is more smoke. This machine with the water table and AVHC was about $7800. The AVHC is necessary for best cut quality and long torch consumable life. Top speed of the machine is about 140-150 inches per minute....whih does not allow for best cut edge quality on materials thinner than 10 gauge.


I think if I had bought the Torchmate before the PlasmaCam....I would be reversing my story about the ease of use of the software! I find the PlasmaCam easier probably because I went through the learning curve first....and I am more familiar. Personally I like downdraft fume control better from a cut quality perspective.....but it does require over 3000 cubic feet per minute of air flow....and must be blown outside your shop. Water tables do affect cut quality...but likely are cheaper to build and operate. No reason why you could not build a water table for a Plasmacam or a downdraft for the Torchmate.

I use machine torches on both....not hand torches. Much easier to square to the plate, easier to change consumables, and easier to electrically interface.

Have had no issues with either machine....both companies have excellent tech support from my perspective. I am biased on the Hypertherm as I work for them! I am building a homebuilt cnc machine using a kit from www.CandCNC.com this winter for comparison.

A few pics:


Jim Colt

 

[Shield Arc]

Jim I have no reason to doubt you, I think you are a very stand up guy! But out of the 10 to 11-years or so I've been on the Internet I think you're the first person I've ever seen say one good word about PlasmaCam. This subject just came up a few weeks ago on another site. I replied that last summer there was an ad in my local Craig's list where a school district was trying to sell three PlasmaCam machines. No one in the district could get the software to work, and PlasmaCam was charging for tech support. Over the years I've seen several PlasmaCams on Craig's list with the same issues.

Never heard a bad word about TorchMate! I almost bought a TorchMate, but bought a Tracker instead.

CNC Plasma Cutters, Tracker CNC Pro Table, Nitro Cutting Machines

 

[muddstopper]

PlasmaCam was the machine I first looked at several years ago. I still have the VCR tape they sent when I asked for info. I havent had a VCR for years now. I think back then their sofware was $6000 or some crazy number. I thought about building my own way back then, but parts werent as easy to comeby as they are now. Parts where available back then, but you had to piece mill everything, no real one stop shopping. I didnt think I could put everything together and make it work, plus, I was still going to have to buy the expensive software. (and learn to use it)

I am just now getting back in the mood for wanting one again and have just started looking. The www.CandCNC.com site looks promising, thanks for the link. Any suggestions on which software to buy if I do decide to build myself.

I would like to hear other opinons as well.

Thanks

 

[jmanatee2]

I also have the Torchmate 2 x 4 with AVHC (Automatic Voltage & height control) and a Hypertherm Powermax45 plasma with machine torch. I use the torchmate cad lite software (I am still learning it).

I did not buy the water table from them, I built my own.

I have cut 26ga accurately with it. You have to reduce the pierce delay.

I am in to it for about $10k (CNC table, water table, software, and plasma)

I am very happy with the setup. It works very well. I had it up and running within a couple hours and I was using it to help build the water table.

There software it very configurable. and there support is top notch.

If you have any specific question let me know.

 

[yomax4]

I've sold every brand out there and there are a lot of new ones in the making. I have to admit the one that causes the most hate and dis content is Plasma Cam. I liked the Torch Mate until Lincoln Electric boutght them. Now I would point to Tracker, Victory or C & G. All have new small tables for the home owner or will build you one. Look around, There are many more decent ones.

 

[jimcolt]

PlasmaCam did create a poor self image with their first model, the 98Z....it required some hands on tinkering to keep it working....and after the first 90 days PlasmaCam started charging for telephone tech support. That was over ten years ago...and like any progressive company they improved their design and service support.....the units they are selling now (the DHC2 and Samson models) are very nice, have some very easy to learn and operate software....and with their servo drives and integrated height control produce very nice cuts. Nothing wrong with the newer model PlasmaCam....and their service and support in my opinion ranks among the best today.


Jim

Jim I have no reason to doubt you, I think you are a very stand up guy! But out of the 10 to 11-years or so I've been on the Internet I think you're the first person I've ever seen say one good word about PlasmaCam. This subject just came up a few weeks ago on another site. I replied that last summer there was an ad in my local Craig's list where a school district was trying to sell three PlasmaCam machines. No one in the district could get the software to work, and PlasmaCam was charging for tech support. Over the years I've seen several PlasmaCams on Craig's list with the same issues.

Never heard a bad word about TorchMate! I almost bought a TorchMate, but bought a Tracker instead.

CNC Plasma Cutters, Tracker CNC Pro Table, Nitro Cutting Machines

 

[muddstopper]

I have only ever seen two machines, one was at my steel supplier and the other in a small welding shop I just happen to go into when I was away from home and needed some welding done. Never got to see either machines operate. My steel supplier sold theirs because they couldnt ever figure out how to run it. I dont know what brand it was. What i would really like to do is go somewhere where someone is actually using a machine and watch it work. So far, everyone that has posted has been a little to far away for me to visit, but if someone that is a litter closer to Western NC, and wouldnt mine a visitor with lots of questions, I would really like to see a machine in action. I think I am going to spend a little time on youtube and see what is on there. I think one of my biggest problems is going to be figureing out what I need and not just what I want. I am not in the welding/fabricating profession, but I do like to tinker and build things. I am just looking for something to keep me busy when I retire in about 5 years.

 

[rjmack]

do these machines have the ability to import autocad 2d files and work from them?

 

[Shield Arc]

Mine does, you have to save them as dxf files. My machine's software is based on CorelDraw9.

 

[crazyal]

You may want to double check with your steel supplier. Those prices sound very much like the ones around here. But the stock size sheets of steel they have are 20' (could be 16' never asked). That said I would still go for the 4x8 table anyway. I would love one but I just can't justify it for the limited use I would put on it. Please keep updating your progress if you do get one.

 

[longevity]

There is a lot of information on Torchmate tables on the Torchmate thread in Pirate4x4.com - we have used our plasmas and both torchmate and plasmacam. You can also see our customer's building their own CNC tables - which is a a much cheaper option.

My CNC Plasma Build log..

 

[grsthegreat]

I have a 2005 era Dynatorch machine. Its not really a hobbyist machine and was in the $11,000 range (not counting plasma cutter machine).

Since then i have upgraded it with their DASH system (a laser guided material locator that allows cutting without the cutting head ever touching the stock), a powered laser locator (for viewing where the cut will actually take place on the metal) and a collision avoidance device to protect the head.

I believe their equipment will only run with a machine head on the plasma cutter (at least mine is that way).

The learning curve for me was a little long, as i had no previous experience with the machine. But i really do like working with it.

The tech support at Dynatorch are FANTASTIC. There's a guy named Leon that will spend whatever time you need on the phone to assist you...even 6 years after the purchase.

Their software is continually being updated, but you have to pay for a yearly subscription update if you want it. I use it because everytime i upgrade it, i get alot more choices and control over my machine.

They offer alot of different software packages. When i started i was using CoralDraw for my artwork (I have Autocad but it takes too long for th stuff i do). Since i didn't buy their software, all i have to do is convert my coraldraw art to a BMP (very easy) then import it to a program called Vextractor to create an image of the outline (as you cut the outline of your design). This creats a DXF file.

I import this DXF file into a program called Enroute. This program automatically cleans up the image and sets the start and exit parameters for the cut. After i save this, i send it to my plasma table to cut.

I know it sounds complicated, but after a little practice, it becomes really east.

Say i want to create a plate with 9 different sides, all lengths known. I draw it in Coral, i convert it to a BMP (5 seconds) and import this to vextractor. Vextractor takes about 15 seconds to convert.

I then import it into Enroute and this program also only takes 10-15 seconds. The great thing about Enroute, lets say i need 20 of these weird brackets made, i can tell it i need 20 and the program will automatically arrange the cuts to waste the LEAST amount of metal. It can flop the cuts thru all planes.


Im sure some of the software that Dynatorch offers nowdays would be easier to use, but back in 2005 this is all they had. Enroute cost me $1,300 so im in no hurry to change it out. Heck it works fine and is fast.

I too have heard alot of bad things about the plasmacam....and i mean alot.

I hear good stuff about the torchmate though


I have a 4x8 table..At times i wish i went 5x10 though


Heres it cutting a plate i made for another TBN member.
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsCNXAkVu-0[/ame]

 

[tlbuser]

I've had a plasmacam since about 2006, use a hypermax 1000 and hand torch. Recently, I've been toying with using a router head on the table to cut wooden signs, etc. The original software was a play on bocad, i believe. I can use autocad to build and then export as .dxf to plasmacam. It wil import and convert, no problem.

 

[muddstopper]

I am still looking at different machines, but am leaning a little toward the 2x2 or 2x4 torchmate simply because of entry price point. I already have the plasma cutter and air compressor so the actual plasma table and software is all I really need. I would like a bigger table than the 2x2, but I have to ask myself, am I really going to be cutting that many items that I need a machine capable of holding a whole sheet of steel. I would suspect most of my work would be oneoff items.

One thing that I have read seems to be that the Torchmate 2x2 is pretty flimsy and some have said they even tack weld the stand to help keep it square. Also, some of the wireing connectors are of poor quality and will come apart. Of course this is internet talk and I cant give a first hand experience to verify whether any of it is true. Has anybody here had such experiences or similar with their Torchmates.

 

[jimcolt]

I did a webinar a few months ago (for Hypertherm) in regards to "small format cnc plasma tables. This webinar can be found on the Hypertherm | Plasma Cutters | Plasma Cutting Equipment | Metal Cutting Equipment | CAM Software | Fiber Laser Cutting Equipment site under education, when webinars. It is a non commercial webinar that talks about the wide variety of manufacturers, machine sizes, capabilities and price for cnc plasma cutting.

There are over 90 worldwide manufacturers of cnc plasma cutting machines worldwide...they start in price at around $3000 for a 2 x 2 entry level machine and go to well in excess of a million dollars for a shipyard machine that could have a cutting bed of 50' x 350'....with four 400 amp plasma torches and full bevelling capability.

In the last 10 or so years the "entry level" machines have become popular....machines priced at under $20,000 with great capabiliies....using a standard office PC (computer) as the CNC control, and a low cost air plasma system as the cutter. These machines are revolutionizing the metal cutting and fabricating industry for small shops and hobbyist type applications.

I have a Torchmate and a PlasmaCam in my home shop....and they are so incredibly easy to use.....that I have learned to design almost every thing that I fabricate with the cnc plasma cut parts in mind. If I need a 3/16" motor mount for a log splitter.....I walt to the machine, spend about 5 minutes drawing the part (which easilly can include bolt holes that are slotted, nice rounded corners, a hole for the oil drain plug.....almost anything) and I then press the cut button and the part is cut accurately and in seconds.

Attached are a few pictures of a log splitter....all parts cut in my shop with either the Torchmate or the PlasmaCam....

Jim Colt
Log rest plates with my name cut....ensures when it is borrowed that it comes back home....the cyclinder trunnions, the motor mount....the ram and the wedge are all cut on my machine.

 

[muddstopper]

Made a call to Plasma Cam. I have been reading a lot of negative comments all over the net about this company. Comments like the machine is cheap made, out of flimsy material. No customer service, Plasma cam charges for tech support, Blah, Blah, Blah.

. One Phone call is all it takes to find the facts.

Plasmacam 4x4 machine is made out of 1/4inch steel, including the gantry. The table is rated to support over 10,000lbs. Doesnt sound flimsey to me. I do believe that some of the older models might have been built out of thinner metal, to many comments on the internet to believe otherwise. History is History and I aint looking to purchase a 10yr old machine so I dont care what the old machine is, was or could have been.

I called late yesterday evening and phone was answered on the first ring. The company rep stayed on the phone with me for about an hr and was still going strong when I was ready to hang up. In fact he was so eager to help, it was almost irritateing.. Support is free for the lifetime of the machine.

Plasma cam is made out of cheap parts, I dont think so. They use Servo motors on all axis where other companies use either stepper motors or a combination of stepper and servo motors. I dont know if this is a plus or minus as far as function of the machine, but servos are much faster and better motors then the stepper motors, they also cost more. Servos for PlasmaCam are propritory, so you wont just go down to the local electronics store and buy one, but should only be a problem if Plasma Cam was to go bellyup. PlasmaCam also has a 3year warranty on their machines, I will be comparing that with what the other companies offer.

Software is propritory, and to here the rep tell it, very easy to learn. Is all one package and you dont need 3 or 4 other software packages to make everything work. Support will walk you thru it over the phone, but if you feel you need to, you can go straight to the company and get hands-on training. Free. Its a little far to Colorado for me to visit, so i would probably endup with my ear stuck to the phone to learn the software.

Plasmacam has a Sell going on right now. The Basic 4x4 table is right at $7000, and includes basice 2d software. This doesnot include Automatic Height Control. Thats another $498 software upgrade. Actually the software is already there, you just have to pay for the code to unlock it and make it usable. In fact, I believe the rep told me there was 5 or 6 additional options for the plasmacam software, and each option was an additional $498, just for the keycode to unlock it. I think thats gougeing the consumer a little bit by nickel and dimeing them, but Pretty much a standard business practice nowadays. If you want the router option, Thats another $1000, but allows you to make 3d routeing images. I am a little confused and forgot to ask about, but I think the rep said that if you bought the 3d routeing option, it came with the automatic height control that worked with the plasma torch. Now dont go quoteing that as a fact, I asked so many questions and was given so much information, I might of misunderstood what the rep was telling me.

The rep at Plasma cam looked to see if there was a machine in my area I could go and look at, but there isnt one anywhere close. I wont buy anything until I look at it first so i might have to drive a litte distance to sneak a peek.

Plasmacam is also doing financing on their equipment, I didnt get all the details on that option, but it is an option none the less.

Disclaimer: I dont work for Plasmacam or any other company that sells plasma cutting or other CNC equipment. I dont own any brand, nor have I used any brand of cnc plasma cutting equipment. I am simply a hobbiest looking for a peice of equipment to put in my own shop. I still have a ton of research to do before I make any purchases.

 

[grsthegreat]

I agree about the servo motors being better for cnc machines. My dynatorch uses them. There like $600/motor.

 

[jimcolt]

Mudstopper,

I'd be glad to show you my PlasmaCam....but I am in NH....a long drive. I could post on the PlasmaPig site (which is a large independant user group of owners) to find a machine close to you....send me a direct email if interested.

Jim Colt jim.colt@hypertherm.com

 

[muddstopper]

Well, I finally got around to calling Torchmate. I have to say, just talking over the phone, I wasnt a bit impressed. A 4x4 table with software was still around $7000. The machine used stepper motors instead of servos, extruded aluminum instead of steel. My biggest complaint was Warranty, only 90days, it would probably take me that long just to figure out how to use it. One other turnoff was it seemed all the person on the phone wanted to do was get my name and address so he could send me more information. I can read the website, I got you on the phone, give me time to ask some questions, dont just push me off so you can go do something else. Sorry if that sounds like a rant, but if your going to get my money, you have to talk with me, not just send me a bunch of paper in the mail.

I would like to give you some positives on the machine, but I never got to ask a lot of questions. It does seem that if you already have software, you can save some money. Other than that, There isnt much else I can say. I will say the person I talked to said up front he just started in the sales department, maybe he just didnt know his job well enought yet to tell me all I needed to know. I'll give him the benefit of doubt, but I cant purchase from his company with the information he provided, sorry.