Climate Change Discussion

[riptides]

Mike brings up an excellent point. How do we create an experiment?

Unfortunate that one cannot experiment on a planetary scale. So one builds models, yet some suspect the data, the model itself and the motives of the modellers. So it all comes down to who can you trust. And here we are.

-Mike Z.

 

[BTDT]

Instead of "Related Topics", they should change the name of this forum to "The Barber Shop", and put one of the Candy Striped things like they had in front of the old shops. This is like sitting around on a Saturday morning waiting for a hair cut, no telling what might come up.

 

[MikePA]

Instead of spending a trillion dollars on war, we could have invested within our own country and continue to make oil, irrelevant to our future.

Money spent on social programs dwarfs the Defense Department budget.

Smarter fuel standards...

What are 'smarter' fuel standards?

rebuilding public mass transit systems,

By and large this benefits urban centers and does less for suburban and almost nothing for rural areas.

gas and oil taxes, with those funds going to public transportation would help.

Sending more tax dollars to the government doesn't solve the problem, e.g., the Social Security fund is supposed to be dedicated to Social Security but that's a fiction. The same fate awaits any gas, oil and 'windfall profits' taxes earmarked to solve this problem. How many times does government have to fail on promises to solve our problems before more people become skeptical of any solution, e.g., carbon tax, that involves sending more money to Washington?

 

[mjarrels]

This thread is beginning to remind me of a story I once heard:

Private was given a container... looks like a crock of sh##.

Flag officer was given the same container... rich and promotes growth.

mark

 

[Tig]

they should change the name of this forum to "The Barber Shop"

I like that
I was thinking it could be called "The Bull Pen"

 

[dmccarty]

Unfortunate that one cannot experiment on a planetary scale. So one builds models, yet some suspect the data, the model itself and the motives of the modellers. So it all comes down to who can you trust. And here we are.

-Mike Z.

Years ago, Maybe a decade or two, I saw a report on one of the major new networks about the Computer Model That Predicted The Future Climate. It was all Gloom and Doom. Flocks of Chicken Little flying around screaming the sky was falling. The "model" predicted that the US bread baskets would be a dust bowl. The Sahara would be a bread basket. All sorts of extremes. Then the "model" builders admitted that if they put in todays numbers into the system, they DID NOT GET TODAYS REALITIES.

Their "model" could predict the future but not today. Hmmm... I LMAO when they admitted this but it was good enough to be put on the major "news" networks.

When the models can't predict todays weather I don't put much weight that they can predict the weather X years from now.

Later,
Dan

 

[turbo36]

Money spent on social programs dwarfs the Defense Department budget.

Actually Military spending is around 30% of the total federal budget or higher if you count military retirement and benefits as well as the military research projects that are hidden in the education budget.

National Priorities Project - Where do your tax dollar go? Notes and Sources


Below is a link showing how we compare to the rest of the world, keep in mind a single B2 bomber costs 2.2 Billion dollars.

MIT CIS: Publications: Foreign Policy Index

 

[Doc_Bob]

If I had any doubts that this group's conclusions were based on ideological/political leanings before, they are completely erased. This report is so much smoke and mirrors. A real joke. But not a funny one. It will be a media hit and in that regard may be far more valuable as propaganda than science. The uncritical masses will eat it up like sheep. The easily lead will be easily lead.

Another person joins the folds of the non-believers. Welcome to the club!

My only question is what will replace "mankind is responsible to global warming" fear that the press and the left has been promoting? How about McDonalds is responsible for obesity? (oops, they already did that one )
Bob

 

[BTDT]

How about McDonalds is responsible for obesity?

I thought they were responsible for stupidity. Spill "hot" coffee on yourself, and they are responsible.

 

[Egon]

There is a little more to the spilt hot coffee than just spilling coffee. It was all about saving money.

 

[MikePA]

National Priorities Project - Where do your tax dollar go? Notes and Sources

Thanks, but I read who some of the people on their board of directors are. I'll pass on reading the document.

Jen Kern - Since 1993, Jen Kern has worked in ACORN’s...
Michael T. Klare is the Five College Professor of Peace and World Security Studies...defense correspondent for The Nation...
Bill Strickland is on the faculty of the W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and is also on the board of the Rainbow Coalition.

Below is a link showing how we compare to the rest of the world, keep in mind a single B2 bomber costs 2.2 Billion dollars.

MIT CIS: Publications: Foreign Policy Index

We protect the rest of the world, so our military budget should be larger and the rest of the world budgets smaller. Oh, and we have not built a B2 in 6 years plus it's a weapon that was conceived and designed during the cold war.

 

[turbo36]

Thanks, but I read who some of the people on their board of directors are. I'll pass on reading the document.

Jen Kern - Since 1993, Jen Kern has worked in ACORN’s...
Michael T. Klare is the Five College Professor of Peace and World Security Studies...defense correspondent for The Nation...
Bill Strickland is on the faculty of the W.E.B. Du Bois Department of Afro-American Studies at the University of Massachusetts, Amherst, and is also on the board of the Rainbow Coalition.


We protect the rest of the world, so our military budget should be larger and the rest of the world budgets smaller. Oh, and we have not built a B2 in 6 years plus it's a weapon that was conceived and designed during the cold war.

It doesn't matter which site I posted from, the data is the same. We spend more on defense then any other single budget item. As I said earlier in this post I will read both sides and make my mind up based on my thinking.

 

[thingy]

Well,we had a high today of 22 above,in southern w.va.,,,understand that it was 40 below in a large chunk of usa this morning and will be tommorow as well,,,,what,,is gobal warming over already?? what a joke,,,,thingy

 

[turbo36]

Well,we had a high today of 22 above,in southern w.va.,,,understand that it was 40 below in a large chunk of usa this morning and will be tommorow as well,,,,what,,is gobal warming over already?? what a joke,,,,thingy

Yep, that's pretty good science right there.

 

[N80]

Can you share any evidence that the countries you named are big offenders? From what I have found none of them are the biggest source of CO2 and on a per capita basis they look pretty good. See page 37 of this report if you want the breakdown. http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/SierraStorm.09Jan2007.pdf

No, I have no numbers or facts, and of course you know I'm suspicious of yours. I'm not even sure what that report was but I did notice that armadillos were listed as an indicator. However, Russia was number four on that list and the data is four years old after all. And what I was trying to say by "new big offenders" is the one's to come. Everyone knows who the current big offenders are. And by all accounts, oil imports/consumption in China and India are increasing exponentially and will continue to do so. As for the Pacific Rim, that is a much harder entity to quantify, but more than one US oil company (AAMACO) have moved operations there expressly for cheaper labor and more lax environmental standards. And the bottom line is that if China's abominable human rights record and Russia's environmental atrocities get free passes from the UN (and Most Favored Nation Status), then they will have little reason to change their ways and no one is going to say anything about them or to them.

And I know, just because they misbehave doesn't mean that we can misbehave, but in reality, that's getting it backwards. We already misbehaved. We already stripped this country bare and had our way with it. (The amount of virgin forest east of the Mississippi is trivial. They're still cutting the tops off mountains in W. Va. and filling in the valleys with the mountain tops.) And now that we are on top (for the moment) it takes a lot of nerve for us, the UN, Greenpeace or anyone else to tell these countries they can't have their environment wrecking orgy of growth, expansion and greed. But evn if we had the nerve they wouldn't listen.

 

[N80]

It doesn't matter which site I posted from, the data is the same. We spend more on defense then any other single budget item.

That probably has not been true since the 1960's when defense spending was on the order of 45%. In 1999 defense spending was 15% not counting veterans benefits. In 1999 social security, medicare, medicaid, and welfare/disability constituted 58% of national spending. Obviously that was 8 years ago and things have changed a little. First entitlements have gone up, not down, but you know, there is a war on and regardless of those politics, a war tends to increase military spending.

And yes, the source of information does matter and it matters a lot. Even the GAO and the various political parties can't agree on these numbers. There is plenty of leeway for fudging and you literally have to be an accountant to get to the bottom of these numbers. Suffice it to say that in the last 10 years defense spending has never come close to the entitlement expenditures....even in war time.

 

[Tig]

You are right about the potential for damage and also about our pot and kettle relationship to up and comming nations.
As for the armadillos, hmmmm let me think, Maybe they were counting dead armadillos by the side of the road. Actually, I skipped over that slide. That sort of evidence seems anecdotal at best. If I see an dead armadillo on my road I'll reconsider.

 

[N80]

Well,we had a high today of 22 above,in southern w.va.,,,understand that it was 40 below in a large chunk of usa this morning and will be tommorow as well,,,,what,,is gobal warming over already?? what a joke,,,,thingy

That is actually a very good point. Not that it has any scientific merit, but it does point to how much this global warming thing generates pure unadulterated propaganda. Whenever there is a brief warm streak, or a hurricane, tornadoes in Florida, etc, the media, the very serious, grim faced media, can talk about nothing but global warming. Nothing like a little cold snap to shut them up. This obviously isn't an indictement of the legitimate scientific efforts that go into this issue but it certainly is a perfect and undeniable example of how it has been hyped and politicized.

 

[riptides]

Yep, that's pretty good science right there.

It is the extreme swings in weather patterns we are starting to observe.

A few weeks ago it was over 70 degrees, then the next day into the 40's.

I cannot recall in my lifes observations such temperature swings. But then again, all models are simulated and my data is suspect.

-Mike Z.

 

[thingy]

Well,don't know if its a good point or not,,but,,you can't say in the summer that we got global warming,,just like in the winter you can't say you got global cooling,,,,now,if it stayed like it was a month or so ago,ALL winter,,and did the same NEXT winter,,well,even dummies like me might agree we got something going on,,[what,we wouldn't be sure of],,but we ain't had a winter like that YET,,have we,,,,,just like the old saying says,,if you don't like the weather,just wait a few days and it will change,,,and thats true,,,,my grand parents and mother told me these stories that back in the 40's,,the winters was bad,3 foot a snow and cold,,,now growing up,,never really experienced any 3 ft of snow here in w.va.,,,,,untill,,about 12 years ago,,,we had,,sure enough,,3 ft of snow,not drifts either,,than about 2 years later,yeah,three more foot,,,,since than the winters have been basiclly uneventful,,,,but,,,thingy