Clear cutting half arsed, why?

[jyoutz]

If you have a pile in my area you can hear the pine bark beetles crunching away on dead pines from 15ft way on a quiet afternoon.

When possible it’s best to cut pine in the fall or winter, after the pine bark beetles are done with the breeding season. Spring and early summer fresh cut pine slash is attractive to pine bark beetles.

 

[jyoutz]

No, they just need the seeds put down in some cases. As I explained before some of my areas were left to reseed and did about as well as those I had planted.
/edit and now a quick look at planting cost seems that it could be $100 to $400/acre for the trees alone.
Average Cost to Plant Pine Trees per Acre (2023) - BootstrapBee.com

That’s about right in terms of planting costs for about 300 trees per acre. Pine species regenerate well when you have seed trees in proximity. But the seeds are heavy and don’t travel far from the seed trees (couple hundred feet), so large open areas need planting to establish pine.

 

[paulsharvey]

That’s about right in terms of planting costs for about 300 trees per acre. Pine species regenerate well when you have seed trees in proximity. But the seeds are heavy and don’t travel far from the seed trees (couple hundred feet), so large open areas need planting to establish pine.

What I've "heard", is you essentially loose 7 years of production using the old style seed trees vs planting new pines. With that, you might only average a harvest after 20 (at the earliest)-35 years.. Like all things, its weighing cost vs benefit.

But for general wood land, within 18 months, that place is gonna be so overgrown, you will have trouble spitting the debris piles.

 

[jyoutz]

What I've "heard", is you essentially loose 7 years of production using the old style seed trees vs planting new pines. With that, you might only average a harvest after 20 (at the earliest)-35 years.. Like all things, its weighing cost vs benefit.

But for general wood land, within 18 months, that place is gonna be so overgrown, you will have trouble spitting the debris piles.

Well that is true that improved genetic stock seedlings will produce timber crops quicker than establishing natural regeneration from seed. And that’s why timber companies invest in tree improvement genetics programs for their lands. But for a non industrial small landowner, rapid maximum production may not be their objectives, and on public lands that have multiple use objectives, natural regeneration may be a better option.

 

[Torvy]

Someone was asking about how much they make. I have a little under 20 acres of pine plantation (meaning they were row planted rather than natural seeding). Forrester put them at about 14 years old and in need of thinning in the next 18 months. Consultant said we'd get $300-$350 per acre at this stage of thinning. Maybe a bit more if the neighbors who bought other parts of the original 200 acres were interested at the same time.

Anyone know if this sounds reasonable? They get a year to cut when convenient. Taking out the least profitable trees first.

 

[newbury]

Anyone know if this sounds reasonable? They get a year to cut when convenient. Taking out the least profitable trees first.

Who is going to determine the "least profitable trees"?
Will the time period allowed to cut be in the contract?
and many more minor factors.
That SOUNDS reasonable, if the company has a track record of honesty. But I've seen them take the best and leave the rest.
If you or a registered forester are going to mark the trees to be cut and they do not damage the soil etc. so the remaining stand is in top condition it reads great.
But in my area I've seen several major thinning messes.
I've also seen them treat it with kid gloves so they can come back in another 10 years to a great stand.

 

[paulsharvey]

That does sound reasonable to me. You will need them thinned in order to get max growth/money on the main cut.

 

[Torvy]

The guy I spoke with is a forester. His company consults with landowners and helps choose the trees. They put together a bid for loggers and supposedly weed out the bad loggers. I know they will shoot for diseased, weak or small trees. They also try to take those with a fork or y in the trunk. I'm not 100% but he implied that the promise of future business keeps most of them honest. I'm not trying to pay the bills with it, but I don't want to be robbed either.

We had a assessment done by the TAMU extension guys. 'Free' service. These guys are on their list of certified foresters.

 

[newbury]

We had a assessment done by the TAMU extension guys. 'Free' service. These guys are on their list of certified foresters.

Reads good.
I went through an experience with one logger who was dealing with my late MIL. He only wanted to deal with her (95 yr old widow living alone) at the time, would send unrequested paperwork for her to sign, and was a general sleaze bag. He almost got away with it. I and my wife stepped in and my MIL got something like $30K for what he was going to pay $10K "as a favor to her".
He even claimed his low price was because the stand had suffered great loss during a tornado.
Amazingly enough the "loss" didn't show up on imagery taken about a month later.

 

[jyoutz]

Someone was asking about how much they make. I have a little under 20 acres of pine plantation (meaning they were row planted rather than natural seeding). Forrester put them at about 14 years old and in need of thinning in the next 18 months. Consultant said we'd get $300-$350 per acre at this stage of thinning. Maybe a bit more if the neighbors who bought other parts of the original 200 acres were interested at the same time.

Anyone know if this sounds reasonable? They get a year to cut when convenient. Taking out the least profitable trees first.

Two things: what size are these trees and what product class are they (pulpwood, poles, small sawtimber) and how much volume will be removed? Next, whatever you do, get the trees marked: a thinning is supposed to leave the best and remove the worst. Don’t let the logger make the tree selection decision. Anytime you can do a stand thinning and be profitable it’s a win because the profit comes from the final harvest and thinning is just an intermediate stand tending activity. Lastly, slash treatment should be part of the contract: don’t let them cut and run; this should be contract specified.

 

[Torvy]

Thanks. The trunks are 10-12" diameter. I went back and reviewed the TAMU report. The stand was planted 16-18 years ago, not 14.

It doesn't specify use. My understanding is that the quality trees are used for lumber and the rest for pulp. The pines are all loblolly, but some volunteer mixed hardwoods exist in spots.

I'd like to plant longleaf pine in their place when that time comes.

 

[jyoutz]

Thanks. The trunks are 10-12" diameter. I went back and reviewed the TAMU report. The stand was planted 16-18 years ago, not 14.

It doesn't specify use. My understanding is that the quality trees are used for lumber and the rest for pulp. The pines are all loblolly, but some volunteer mixed hardwoods exist in spots.

I'd like to plant longleaf pine in their place when that time comes.

I love longleaf pine. A much tougher and long lived pine. Loblolly is planted most often because it grows faster for timber production, but longleaf used to historically occupy much of the southeast US. My agency has a longleaf restoration program on much of the SE National Forests. At 10-12” diameter I would think these would be small sawtimber with tops for pulpwood. And you have a nearby sawmill in Tyler.

 

[Torvy]

Lots of sawmills around. West Fraser has two that I know of closer than Tyler. We're an hour from Tyler. A little closer to Longview.

 

[jyoutz]

Lots of sawmills around. West Fraser has two that I know of closer than Tyler. We're an hour from Tyler. A little closer to Longview.

Texarkana area?

 

[Torvy]

Texarkana area?

Between the two.

 

[jyoutz]

Between the two.

Nice pine country.

 

[Torvy]

100% why we moved out here. I also like the conifers in the Black Hills up between Deadwood and Keystone. She didn't want to be that cold again.

 

[jyoutz]

100% why we moved out here. I also like the conifers in the Black Hills up between Deadwood and Keystone. She didn't want to be that cold again.

The Black Hills are similar to the forest areas in my Region.

 

[Torvy]

The Black Hills are similar to the forest areas in my Region.

Yours are nice, too. Like the song goes.."I've been everywhere man..." (except AK and HI)

 

[old and tired]

If you have a pile in my area you can hear the pine bark beetles crunching away on dead pines from 15ft way on a quiet afternoon.

Just trying to educate... Pine bark beetles attack live / stressed trees, needing moisture for the young larvae to survive to adulthood (they live just under the bark). When you hear crunching on dead pines, those are wood borers and their young feed in rotting dead wood.

As for why people clear cut like the OP saw... it's the cheapest, most cost effective way. The owners most likely don't even see the property! Once the under story begins to grow, it great habitat for so many animals and it provides cover for them too.

My degree is in forest management (Stephen F. Austin, '85) where you learn a half dozen ways to manage a forest.... with clear cutting being used 98% of the time.

Hopefully, they will replant it (but I doubt it...)