ck20 will it work a 4n1 bucket?

[Agentiron]

I was wondering if a ck20 will have the flow to use a 4n1 bucket effectively? I also wonder if there will be any significant weight issues with it. The Long 4n1 does not appear that heavy, and it seems some of the small Kubota tractors have them on them. Any thoughts or experience would be great.
AI

 

[IslandTractor]

If you can get a light weight 4n1 from WR Long or ATI you should be fine. Just keep the 4n1 under 400lbs so you don't eat up too much of the 1070lb lift capacity of the KL120 loader.

You'll also need to decide between adding a QA adapter (more weight) or getting a Kioti specific pin mount version of the 4N1 (not as quick to attach and less easily sold).

 

[MarkV]

Like Island Tractor said weight is the issue for smaller tractors. I looked into to a 4in1 bucket for my B21, very similar capacities to your tractor, and found that most will weigh 200+ lbs. greater than your stock bucket. For me the 20% loss in loader capacity was not worth the versatility of the 4 in 1 bucket. Others on the forum run them on B21’s and would not be without one. Just depends on your uses.

MarkV

 

[Agentiron]

Thanks fellas

I understand the weight issue, but am also concerned about the hydralic flow, trying to use multiple functions at one time. The tractor is fine working into a pile, not fast as you know, but adaquate. Now what if I am trying to curl the bucket, raise the loader, close the jaw, and move into something? Maybe all functions will not come into play at the same time, I was just currious if this would be more problems for me then the cool bucket would be worth.

Thanks
AI

 

[IslandTractor]

Hydraulic flow is not a major issue with 4n1 buckets. You are controlling a couple of relatively small dual acting cylinders which really don't take up much flow at all. Additionally it is unusual to be open/closing the bucket while moving so the HST is not competing for hydraulic capacity. I don't think a 4n1 would use any more than a grapple. I used a grapple very successfully on my CK20.

 

[hazmat]

... Additionally it is unusual to be open/closing the bucket while moving so the HST is not competing for hydraulic capacity. ....

Kiotis may be different, but every HST tractor I'm familiar with has a separate pump for the hydraulics and transmission, so there is no competition for hydraulic flow. Of course both pumps are powered by the same engine, so there is competition for HP - I've been known to stall a tractor by pushing into a pile & lifting at the same time

 

[IslandTractor]

I believe some tractors have single pumps and the CK20 is one. As I recall it has about 8 gallons per minute capacity which is pretty good for a 21hp tractor. As you point out though the real issue is stalling the tractor. No way would anyone stall a tractor opening or closing a 4n1. Lifting a heavy load, yes, and digging or mowing yes but not operating a relatively small pair of cylinders.

 

[dfkrug]

Kiotis may be different, but every HST tractor I'm familiar with has a separate pump for the hydraulics and transmission, so there is no competition for hydraulic flow. Of course both pumps are powered by the same engine, so there is competition for HP - I've been known to stall a tractor by pushing into a pile & lifting at the same time

That's it, HAZ.

I recently sold my B21 w/ 4n1 and I bought a CK20 for a friend a few
years ago. These 2 CUTs are very close in weight and power, and both
can handle a lighter 4n1. Hyd flow is not an issue and the HST pumps
are totally different and separate from the implement gear pump. I do
think both machines are a bit under-powered, so you can experience
this while moving and using the implement pump at less than full throttle.

I now want a 4n1 for my CK30. This is a 50% heavier CUT than the B21
or CK20, but I still want a bkt that is 54-60" wide maximum and under 500#,
if I can get one. The biggest value I see for the 4n1 is the grading ability.
The grapple ability is useful, but not as good as a dedicated grapple. If
I can get a 4n1, I will never need to remove my backhoe to use my box
scraper.

 

[IslandTractor]

I now want a 4n1 for my CK30. This is a 50% heavier CUT than the B21
or CK20, but I still want a bkt that is 54-60" wide maximum and under 500#,
if I can get one. The biggest value I see for the 4n1 is the grading ability.
The grapple ability is useful, but not as good as a dedicated grapple. If
I can get a 4n1, I will never need to remove my backhoe to use my box
scraper.

I bought a used WRLong 4n1 that weighs about 400lbs. I use it exactly as you are proposing and for that purpose (something on the FEL to help with various tasks while the BH is mounted) it works fine.

The CK30 loader actually is only a smigin more powerful than the CK20 loader but in either case, for the type of work being proposed I think one of the light duty WRLong 4n1s would do fine. Mine is a 60 inch UJ260 which is listed at 445lbs. If you are not planning to use it to lift a lot then the weight is not such a problem. Figure the standard bucket must weigh 150-200 lbs so you are really reducing lift capacity by 250lbs which would leave the KL120/KL130 with 800-900lbs of capacity or about what the Kubota B series loaders for the B7500/7600 have with stock buckets. They do make a lighter duty hydrojaw version which weighs only 340lbs. Not sure what the differences are other than weight, shielding for the hydraulic cylinder and bucket capacity (10 vs 9).

 

[dfkrug]

I bought a used WRLong 4n1 that weighs about 400lbs. I use it exactly as you are proposing and for that purpose (something on the FEL to help with various tasks while the BH is mounted) it works fine.

The CK30 loader actually is only a smigin more powerful than the CK20 loader but in either case, for the type of work being proposed I think one of the light duty WRLong 4n1s would do fine. Mine is a 60 inch UJ260 which is listed at 445lbs. If you are not planning to use it to lift a lot then the weight is not such a problem. Figure the standard bucket must weigh 150-200 lbs so you are really reducing lift capacity by 250lbs which would leave the KL120/KL130 with 800-900lbs of capacity or about what the Kubota B series loaders for the B7500/7600 have with stock buckets. They do make a lighter duty hydrojaw version which weighs only 340lbs. Not sure what the differences are other than weight, shielding for the hydraulic cylinder and bucket capacity (10 vs 9).

I would love to land a used WRLong like you did. Even if I have to weld my
own pin-on brackets onto it. I actually expect to have to do that. I just do
not want to pay $2500, which is what the ConstructionAttachments 4n1
for my old Kubota cost. (That sucker was heavy!)

The KL130 bkt weighs only 180# and the lift capacity has been acceptable
to me. I have been able to lift as much as 1500 lb if I do not go too high. A
400-500# 4n1 would be OK.

 

[IslandTractor]

I would love to land a used WRLong like you did. Even if I have to weld my
own pin-on brackets onto it. .

I actually had to have the JD mount cut off and then weld on a skid steer receiver mount. Not a big deal.

I agree that a 400-450 lb 4n1 would be acceptable for a CK30. When I bought mine I thought I was going to use it on the CK20 but I acquired the DK before I had a chance to hook it up the CK.

I like the mini bulldozer blade best as it is real helpful in putting things back after using the BH to dig out stumps. I am spoiled by having a real grapple so I am rather frustrated by the pseudo grapple function. I've never managed to backblade effectively but that is an operator issue. Otherwise it is a slightly small normal bucket when closed up.

I'm pretty sure that the UltraJaw2 and the HydroJaw2 versions that would be under 425lbs cost less than the 2500 you were quoted. I won't torture you with what I paid.

 

[alchemysa]

I was wondering if a ck20 will have the flow to use a 4n1 bucket effectively? I also wonder if there will be any significant weight issues with it. The Long 4n1 does not appear that heavy, and it seems some of the small Kubota tractors have them on them. Any thoughts or experience would be great.
AI

I have a small tractor with a heavy 4in1. Its fantastic. The loss of lift capacity is a minor problem compared to the benefits. 4in1's tend to have a smaller bucket capacity anyway so this automatically compensates to some degree for the loss of lifting power. Even with my small LA300 loader I'm able to lift anything I can scoop into the bucket. I really only notice the loss of power in breakout force, but I just back out a bit. But the weight up front really adds up when I add heavy forks to the front of the bucket but I just have to remember to not overload the pallets.

I think a more important issue than loss of grunt up front is the loss of traction out back. A heavy 4in1 can lighten your back end considerably. Depending on the tractor you may find you always need some kind of rear ballast. I have a backhoe that solves that problem.

 

[dfkrug]

I have a small tractor with a heavy 4in1. Its fantastic. The loss of lift capacity is a minor problem compared to the benefits. 4in1's tend to have a smaller bucket capacity anyway so this automatically compensates to some degree for the loss of lifting power. Even with my small LA300 loader I'm able to lift anything I can scoop into the bucket. I really only notice the loss of power in breakout force, but I just back out a bit. But the weight up front really adds up when I add heavy forks to the front of the bucket but I just have to remember to not overload the pallets.

I think a more important issue than loss of grunt up front is the loss of traction out back. A heavy 4in1 can lighten your back end considerably. Depending on the tractor you may find you always need some kind of rear ballast. I have a backhoe that solves that problem.

You should not have any redux in breakout force, since that is a function
of leverage, not weight. Your 4in1 must have a lower curl cyl pin connection
or longer bkt carcass. Due to the weight, I will continue to use separate
pin-on forks instead of bkt forks and stay away from any sort of QA bkt
attachment.

Your point about traction is important. My B21 was 2000 naked and the 510#
4in1 bkt made the tractor essentially inoperable without the hoe attached.
In 2wd on pavement on a slight grade the rear wheels would lose traction
with nothing in the bkt!

 

[IslandTractor]

You should not have any redux in breakout force, since that is a function
of leverage, not weight.

I think there would be a modest reduction in breakout force. It depends on how you define breakout force and it is a confusing term. As I understand breakout force, it is a combination of total lift and curl performed simultaneously rather than just curl with the bucket heel on the ground. I think of it as "the maximum amount of upward force the FEL can generate using all of it's hydraulic circuits combined". It is not the sum of lift plus curl although some manufacturers seem to calculate it that way. If you consider breakout force to be simply the curl force with the bucket heel on the ground then a heavy bucket would have no real effect but if it is a combination of lift and curl then a heavy bucket does diminish the breakout force somewhat.

 

[dfkrug]

I think there would be a modest reduction in breakout force. It depends on how you define breakout force and it is a confusing term. As I understand breakout force, it is a combination of total lift and curl performed simultaneously rather than just curl with the bucket heel on the ground. I think of it as "the maximum amount of upward force the FEL can generate using all of it's hydraulic circuits combined". It is not the sum of lift plus curl although some manufacturers seem to calculate it that way. If you consider breakout force to be simply the curl force with the bucket heel on the ground then a heavy bucket would have no real effect but if it is a combination of lift and curl then a heavy bucket does diminish the breakout force somewhat.

I just used the SAE/DIN definition of Breakout Force:

Breakout Force (SAE/DIN)
"The breakout force is the available force at the tip of the teeth
created by the bucket cylinder. Max. breakout force is reached
when the available tooth force reaches its maximum."

If B/O force included the upward force of the boom, then a heavier bkt
would reduce it, yes.

 

[alchemysa]

I just used the SAE/DIN definition of Breakout Force:

Breakout Force (SAE/DIN)
"The breakout force is the available force at the tip of the teeth
created by the bucket cylinder. Max. breakout force is reached
when the available tooth force reaches its maximum."

If B/O force included the upward force of the boom, then a heavier bkt
would reduce it, yes.

I get what you mean. I was probably using the term a little loosely. Actually the tractor has good curl strength but it does suffer in the area of pure vertical grunt. But as I said its a very heavy bucket on a small loader. I often have to back out a bit to give the loader some help. Its surprising how a relatively small pile can seem to hold a bucket in its grip.

But I still wouldn't sacrifice the benefits of this 4in1 for an extra 200 lbs of lifting capacity.

 

[dfkrug]

But I still wouldn't sacrifice the benefits of this 4in1 for an extra 200 lbs of lifting capacity.

I hear ya. I was skeptical until I got a couple of hrs of seat time. Now
I want one for the Kioti. It is not intuitive that such a heavy bucket would
be so useful on a smaller CUT. I probably never should have tried it.

As for the CA 4in1 on my old Kubota L2550, I tried it out, but mostly
as a grapple, not as a grader. I put that bkt on the Kubota just after
I sold it, so it was not for me anyway.

 

[alchemysa]

I hear ya. I was skeptical until I got a couple of hrs of seat time. Now
I want one for the Kioti. It is not intuitive that such a heavy bucket would
be so useful on a smaller CUT. I probably never should have tried it.

As for the CA 4in1 on my old Kubota L2550, I tried it out, but mostly
as a grapple, not as a grader. I put that bkt on the Kubota just after
I sold it, so it was not for me anyway.

You could almost suggest that a 4in1 is more handy on a small tractor than on a big one because it can make up for the some of the CUT's inadequacies in the area of power, weight, and reach. For example i can build a taller pile of dirt, brush or rubbish with a 4in1. And I can reach over the dirt pile and drag it back when it starts to get a bit messy. On the weekend I had to remove a very broad, 20 ft high tree that was covered in very thick vines. A standard bucket on a small tractor would have been of limited value but with the 4in1 I was able to strip most of the vines off the tree before attacking it with a chainsaw. Then under the tree i found some old half buried gearboxes. Just picked 'em up with the 4in1 and dumped them elsewhere. I love the 4in1. I know its not as good at grappling big piles of brush as a dedicated grapple but its always instantly there when needed. I use it just about every time I use the tractor - even when I'm not really expecting to need it.

By the way. Have you still got the B21.

 

[dfkrug]

By the way. Have you still got the B21.

Sold it a month or so ago. I am on the lookout for a skid steer project or
a NH HST CUT project. It is sometimes hard to have only one tractor.

 

[dfkrug]

I'm pretty sure that the UltraJaw2 and the HydroJaw2 versions that would be under 425lbs cost less than the 2500 you were quoted. I won't torture you with what I paid.

The WRLong HJ2 60" 4-in-1 weighs only 340#, but it lists for $1734, so
with shipping & tax, plus driving a couple of hundred miles to a distributor,
it looks like about $2500. :-(

The factory will weld on the adapter I need for the KL130.