Traction CK20 Break the wheels free

[CBB]

So I was out using my old Kubota B4200 20 HP tractor last night to spread fertilizer before the rain and it occured to how I can figure out if maybe my CK 20 is just not working right.

Here is my query.

The B4200 I can put in gear and all four wheels will spin breaking loose if I say, tie it off to something.

My CK20 HST I cannot break the tires free. It just bogs down even if I only touch the pedal a fraction of an inch. Now over the weekend I was backing up a pond bank mowing it. If I don't the seeds of the weeds will blow into my field so everything must be mowed. The tractor did not have the power to back up the slope. Now my B4200 gear will just plow right up and my little 20 HP lawn tractor with chains will go right up the slope but my HST CK 20 will not even with the bush hog shut off.

Is this normal or is my tractor not working correctly? Can you break your tires free with the HST? That is my question. Even new, the CK20 would not do anymore than it will today. Appreciate the input and suggestions, as always.

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

To answer your question: Yes they will in LOW Range and No they will not in HIGH Range.

First question I have for you is, do you have the tractor transfer case in low or high range. Second, where is your RPM's and what do they do when you apply pressure to the Hydrostatics? i.e. Does your engine bog down? Or Stay at RPM setting?

Every CK20S HST we have sold has spun the tires on the low side. In high range they typically do not - they bog the motor down.

Remember, Hydrostatics need to be run at higher RPM's than do gear shift tractors.

 

[CBB]

To answer your question: Yes they will in LOW Range and No they will not in HIGH Range.

First question I have for you is, do you have the tractor transfer case in low or high range. Second, where is your RPM's and what do they do when you apply pressure to the Hydrostatics? i.e. Does your engine bog down? Or Stay at RPM setting?

Every CK20S HST we have sold has spun the tires on the low side. In high range they typically do not - they bog the motor down.

Remember, Hydrostatics need to be run at higher RPM's than do gear shift tractors.

Hmmm, wide open is the RPM in low always because in high range it bogs down so much. In low range it bogs right down to a stall backing up the pond bank even with the pedal only depressed a 1/8 inch or less if I can get it. Maybe there is something wrong with the tractor since the day I got it because I have always maintained it is underpowered. It did go in for service once. It has 600 hours now. As a farmer, we tend to do all our own work on equipment. Our 81 JD in once--the rest we fix ourselves.
I have never, could never, at any RPM or any range ever get the CK20 to spin the tires. If I tied it to a tree and pulled, it would just bog down to a stall before the tires spun...unless in mud or on ice.

 

[mj007]

Something's wrong ... my CK20S will break loose under the conditions you describe

 

[wade simpson]

My ck20s(gear) will bury itself to the axles at 1500 rpm, in low, even on the compacted soil of my road. The tires(AG) will break free in high, usually going uphill at around 1800 -2000. It is a fairly steep hill.

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

CBB: Here you go. Start with this troubleshooting guide - It is for a CK20S HST. Try looking at this and if you have more questions post, email or call.

Tony

 

[CBB]

CBB: Here you go. Start with this troubleshooting guide - It is for a CK20S HST. Try looking at this and if you have more questions post, email or call.

Tony

Thank you Tony.
Ouch. I had the CK20 into the dealer for the 100 hours maintenance so it is not fluid levels and the power level has alway, since new, been the same so it looks like as I progress around that flow chart of troubleshooting like this is out of my range to repair myself. I don't like the last option since it is replace the HST as this is out of warranty and even though the the unit has always been this way, I just always thought the CK20 was underpowered. We had some discussions on the forum here about it and no one suggested it could be defect in the unit from the get go. So ouch because I have waited too long.
Been thing I guess is to get this unit over to the dealer in Chaffee, NY and see what they find out. Think I will wait until post harvest and money is always short pre-harvest on a farm.
Again, thanks for the flow chart.

 

[LaVoie Equipment]

You know I was thinking - could someone have put/added the wrong oil in the transmission? Sounds odd, but gear oil doesn't flow like UTF. We use CASTROL UTF and a 10% additional LUCAS Hydraulic Oil Booster. Just a simple thought you have already checked.

Seriously - One other thing you can check. Find a guy with a Dyno. It should be putting out approx 16 - 17 HP at/through the PTO. HP and Torque directly effect Hydrostatics - The dyno will show what it is producing. HMMM!

If it is not you can change/adjust the timing of the injection pump. You may think this is crazy - but sometimes the higher the elevation (Your elevation up around 1400 1500 ft?), a timing change (fuel pump) may be needed. Maybe it was just set/adjusted wrong from the factory. One shim here one shim there kind of thing.

It may be advantagous to check the injection pump and injectors also. Quick $100.00 at the Fuel Pump shop is cheaper than the Hydrostatic system.

I will have to dig you up the timing procedure. I don't have it off the top of my head. If you want it let me know and I'll get it for you.

 

[IslandTractor]

You know I was thinking - could someone have put/added the wrong oil in the transmission? Sounds odd, but gear oil doesn't flow like UTF. .

Should be pretty easy to check. HST oil is essentially colorless. Almost all gear or motor oils are more caramel or honey colored right out of the bottle. Check the HST dipstick and have a white paper towel ready if it is hard to judge.

 

[JonKioti]

"I will have to dig you up the timing procedure. I don't have it off the top of my head. If you want it let me know and I'll get it for you. "

Geez Tony - you really know your *****, and you're helpful!

Glad to have you around.

Jon

 

[laurencen]

the CK20 gear will bury tires in any range, never had the motor bog down pulling, all four wheels spin even with the backhoe on

 

[gkm]

the CK20 gear will bury tires in any range, never had the motor bog down pulling, all four wheels spin even with the backhoe on

Ditto that!

 

[dfkrug]

My CK20 HST I cannot break the tires free.

Since the engine bogs in LOW range, I will bet that your brakes are
dragging, or the 3-pt cylinder is in relief. Can you manually push the
tractor when it is in Neutral on level ground?

The CK20 HST is a great tractor and I have had no problems in LOW. HI
range shows the tractor is somewhat underpowered for its weight. This
tractor would win the Best Buy Award with only a bit more power.

 

[IslandTractor]

The CK20 HST is a great tractor and I have had no problems in LOW. HI
range shows the tractor is somewhat underpowered for its weight. This
tractor would win the Best Buy Award with only a bit more power.

Don't need more power as much as a mid range HST. A three speed HST is what it needs. I am a bit surprised that after Kubota updated their B series with a three speed HST last year that Kioti has not followed.

I always found the high range useful only for travel on flat surfaces. The low is of course capable of most anything in the way of grunt you have any right to expect of a 21hp tractor. What is missing is a mowing range between those two. I got tired of mowing in low.

 

[CBB]

Our elevation is 2250 feet.
Oil is clear in the HST
I can't believe you can break your tires free. All this time I just thought it was the tractor because no way can I break the tires free.
I am going to send it to the shop and will post back what they find out.
Thanks much all.

You know I was thinking - could someone have put/added the wrong oil in the transmission? Sounds odd, but gear oil doesn't flow like UTF. We use CASTROL UTF and a 10% additional LUCAS Hydraulic Oil Booster. Just a simple thought you have already checked.

Seriously - One other thing you can check. Find a guy with a Dyno. It should be putting out approx 16 - 17 HP at/through the PTO. HP and Torque directly effect Hydrostatics - The dyno will show what it is producing. HMMM!

If it is not you can change/adjust the timing of the injection pump. You may think this is crazy - but sometimes the higher the elevation (Your elevation up around 1400 1500 ft?), a timing change (fuel pump) may be needed. Maybe it was just set/adjusted wrong from the factory. One shim here one shim there kind of thing.

It may be advantagous to check the injection pump and injectors also. Quick $100.00 at the Fuel Pump shop is cheaper than the Hydrostatic system.

I will have to dig you up the timing procedure. I don't have it off the top of my head. If you want it let me know and I'll get it for you.

 

[dfkrug]

Don't need more power as much as a mid range HST. A three speed HST is what it needs.

I don't think you would really gain much with another gear range between
H and L. The gear ratio for H should be lowered a bit, or just give it a
bigger engine.

I have had 3 different HST tractors that weighed very close to 2000#
naked: B21, CK20, and JD955. The B21 is the only one with a 3-range
gearbox, and I found the H range to be more unusable than the CK20's.
The 955 had only a 2-range gearbox, but a 33hp engine. That tractor
was amazing....tons of power...very strong HST. I could always spin
the tires in L, even with new AG tires and a 1300# hoe attached.

Like the CK20, I found the major drawback to the B21 was the lack of
power. Kubota has addressed this by going from a 21hp engine to a
26hp engine in the B26, a 25% increase. A 28hp CK20 would be the
bee's knees.

 

[IslandTractor]

A 28hp CK20 would be the
bee's knees.

I wouldn't disagree but I found the 21hp CK20 to be basically well powered for the size, I just missed having a gear higher than low that would allow me to mow in hilly conditions.

I'd never say the CK20 was a weak tractor it is just limited as a mower due to the need to putter along in low gear most of the time. I'd put the CK20 up against any of the sub 30hp B series for ground engaging or FEL tasks but they'd stomp the CK as mowers.

 

[MichiganIron]

We had a CK20 HST with the exact same characteristics as what you are describing. Before you get into anything serious, check and make sure the brakes are completely dis-engaging. We found that there was brake drag on the tractor that was eating up the power. Easy thing to check. Make sure the cam rockers at the rear housings are moving completely with the brake rods, and there's no sticking where they go through the brake case.

Sometimes it's the simple things. Took 15 minutes to free them up, and it ran like a completely different tractor.