Loader BX23 Cylinder leaking LA210 - rebuild or buy new?

[JWR]

Agree with bspeedy in all regards. Make sure the main cylinder shaft is not bent and not nicked or scored; then do exactly what he said. I've had my pins loose to put on a different bucket and that's no problem. The parts are not expensive, active hydraulic shops do this routinely and think nothing of it, and there is no need to replace the cylinder. Those folks will see and react to surprises that might show up and detect damage that you or I would not. Plus bspeedy is also right about having a good relationship long-term with a local hydraulic shop. All good. That's the way to go.

p.s.: Dave M7040 is a great resource for info but not all of us have his skills, tools, or experience. In my more timid state I would rather have the hydraulic shop do the new seals than doing that myself.

 

[JRobyn]

In my experience a good local hydraulic shop will do a better and cheaper job than you can do it yourself, and WAY less than a dealer. And as has been mentioned, they will check the cylinder bore, piston, and rod for any subtle defects, and will (in most cases) GUARANTEE their work.

Removal is cake, but maybe a little messy once you disconnect the hoses. Expect to have plenty of hydraulic fluid spilled - it can't be helped. The pins MAY require some tapping to remove if your grease is old and hard. You DO regularly grease them, right? A chunk of wood or a piece of hardwood dowel plus a mallet makes a good driver. Once the hoses are disconnected, the piston/rod can usually be pulled in or out by hand with modest force. Beware when you push the rod IN that you may get a jet of fluid out of the hose fittings. They WILL dribble fluid while you are transporting them - don't do this in the trunk of the Lexus without something absorbent! "Tubing wrenches" are nice to have for the hoses, but almost never required - just a regular open end, or even a snug-fitting adjustable. If you find that the pins are worn after you remove them, order new ones. It's no big deal to replace them one at a time later on if needed.

 

[Tractor_Jim_CT]

It only ended up only taking me 8 to 10 minutes to remove the curl cylinder and it was super easy. I think it was harder for me to install a FEL bucket pin.

Basically I took the cotter pins out, removed bottom bar pin first, then the two hoses, sealed then in a rubber glove to keep dirt out. The top bar pin was a little harder and I noticed the dealer only greased the bottom pin and the top was almost dry. This pissed me off as I just finished paying for a full servicing and this was supposed to be done. Now I wonder what else they took a short cut on. I drove the cylinder to a hydraulic repair shop figuring this is all they do and I have to start somewhere to find good people.

I want to pass on my BX23 went in for servicing 4 weeks ago and I just got it back a couple days ago after being promised a quick turn around. I actually approached the dealer 8 weeks ago, but because his mechanic was going on vacation I had to wait 4 weeks, thus the reason for the quick turn around promise. I asked the dealer to go thru everything as I was taking the tractor two hours away to start working on land I own and I didn't want to run into trouble. Was told everything was done after a week but the bad news was the BX needed a fuel sending unit. Not hearing from these guys after another week, I went by the dealer a and was told the sending unit would be in the next day, but couldn't get to it. On week three I find out they still did not install the sending unit and when I inquired about the other work including new switches, I learned the work he said was done was not done. He promised me 100% it would be done the following Thursday and delivered. I get the call that Thursday they could not get the BH off and decided not to replace the sending unit. At this point I just wanted my machine out of there as I lost 2 months and now this happens. Get this - my machine is delivered minus the steering wheel cap.

My point in telling this story is I am grateful for the help on TBN, which helped me solve the issue quickly without the dealer run around. I do have another question. Before I put the large pins back in, should I clean out the area of old caked on dirt and grease the pins go in and if yes, what would you clean it with before coating with new grease? Would you use the same large pins or put new ones in as these have 450 hours on them. Thanks

 

[JWR]

Good dealers are worth their weight in the proverbial gold, ... and then the troublesome dealers and other support shops can be a significant pain in the rear end. I've certainly had both. Sounds to me like you are in this for the long haul. So it would probably pay to shop around and talk with other owners in your area, scouting for a good dealer with a real reliable service dept. When you are in no hurry and not under the gun to get something fixed. It would be too easy to go into anecdotes and stories in 3 different states but I will resist the urge.

Back to the hardware at hand: The pins in the two ends of that curl cylinder are just not critical nor are they failure prone. I've had a BX2200 with an LA211 loader for 15 years. My stepson has a BX2230 which I found for him several years back too. We have identical LA211 loaders with the single curl cylinders. The larger tractors (with loaders in the 300 series or 400 series) go to dual curl cylinders. You will not be able to tell the difference between 450 hours on them versus 2500 hours. And lube is not at all critical either. There is just not very much rotation around those pins even in heavy usage, though there can be large forces on them at times. The only real function of lube on those two pins is to prevent them getting tight, creating some mild binding and generally to keep things moving easily and smoothly. Frankly if you totally forgot about them for 3 or 4 years or more you would never know the difference. Most people do exactly that.

Good luck in finding the best sources around your area.

 

[Dave M7040]

It only ended up only taking me 8 to 10 minutes to remove the curl cylinder and it was super easy. I think it was harder for me to install a FEL bucket pin.

Basically I took the cotter pins out, removed bottom bar pin first, then the two hoses, sealed then in a rubber glove to keep dirt out. The top bar pin was a little harder and I noticed the dealer only greased the bottom pin and the top was almost dry. This pissed me off as I just finished paying for a full servicing and this was supposed to be done. Now I wonder what else they took a short cut on. I drove the cylinder to a hydraulic repair shop figuring this is all they do and I have to start somewhere to find good people.

I want to pass on my BX23 went in for servicing 4 weeks ago and I just got it back a couple days ago after being promised a quick turn around. I actually approached the dealer 8 weeks ago, but because his mechanic was going on vacation I had to wait 4 weeks, thus the reason for the quick turn around promise. I asked the dealer to go thru everything as I was taking the tractor two hours away to start working on land I own and I didn't want to run into trouble. Was told everything was done after a week but the bad news was the BX needed a fuel sending unit. Not hearing from these guys after another week, I went by the dealer a and was told the sending unit would be in the next day, but couldn't get to it. On week three I find out they still did not install the sending unit and when I inquired about the other work including new switches, I learned the work he said was done was not done. He promised me 100% it would be done the following Thursday and delivered. I get the call that Thursday they could not get the BH off and decided not to replace the sending unit. At this point I just wanted my machine out of there as I lost 2 months and now this happens. Get this - my machine is delivered minus the steering wheel cap.

My point in telling this story is I am grateful for the help on TBN, which helped me solve the issue quickly without the dealer run around. I do have another question. Before I put the large pins back in, should I clean out the area of old caked on dirt and grease the pins go in and if yes, what would you clean it with before coating with new grease? Would you use the same large pins or put new ones in as these have 450 hours on them. Thanks

Congratulations on jumping in and removing the cylinder. For the dirt and dried grease, I feel it is worthwhile to clean the area up as dirt and grease make an abrasive paste which is best not injected into the joint when re assembling. It is part of taking care and keeping your machine looking good.

As far as how to clean and what to use, you have a number of choices. First you need a solvent to dissolve the old grease and soften it. Everyone's first tendency is to use gasoline as people have it around for lawnmowers. I think that is a bad choice because of flammability. Varsol, which is used to clean paint brushes, will do the job and is cheap. Even diesel fuel is a solvent.

Next you should have some rubber, vinyl or similar gloves to protect your skin. These solvents will dissolve the oils in your skin leaving you dry and itchy. Further, through skin contact, the solvents are absorbed into the body.

The last items are a plastic putty knife available at paint stores, and a very stiff brush like the ones sold in grocery stores for scrubbing stuff. The plastic putty knife rather than a metal one because it will not scratch surfaces. The putty knife removes the large thick crud easily and quickly. Next you use the solvent for the final cleaning by painting it on and brushing it until the old grease is dissolved. Rags or paper towels finish up the cleaning.

If you were doing this type of cleaning often then a "parts washer," brush which has very stiff brisels will dissolve the grease quickly and will get into small places. These brushes are sold at auto parts places and Northern tool and similar. Not expensive!

Compare the two pins after you clean them and if they both look the same as far as wear and scratches, which is what I expect you will see, then reuse both.

450 hours may seem like a lot to you but reality is that these farm machines will run for 5 or 6,000 hours before needing serious engine work and then continue for another 4 or 5,000 hours before they reach the end of their lives with fenders falling off, electrical lights and switches broken etc, . All of this long life depends upon the use of the recommended lubricants following the warm up procedures in cold weather, use of quality filters and the use of the machine within its limits.

Once things are re-assembled, you can use the grease gun to lube the pins. Leaving this step until the cylinder is installed is just less messy for you as during the re attachment of the hoses you want to be keeping the ends of them and the cylinder ports free of any dirt and this is a lot easier to do with a second set of clean gloves.

Look forward to reading what the hydraulic shop found.

Dave M7040

 

[bspeedy]

Congrats on getting the cylinder off. Most aspects of routine tractor servicing are JUST THIS EASY. Forget about the stealership and start doing your own work. You will get to know your machine better. And, judging by your apparent fastidious nature and attention to detail, you are the perfect 'type' of person to service his own equipment. You will do it correctly and you will do it in a timely fashion. Take all the time it took you to haul the tractor to the dealer, the time to call them, all the wasted time for them to do an improper job of servicing your machine and you could have done it yourself for less money.

A lot of guys talk about how great their dealer is and good for them. I've very little use for a dealer other than occasional parts which can typically be purchased on-line for less coin. In fact, I really like the excavator dealership with which I do business, but I have been waiting for a call back on a simple part for a couple days. That's typical in my experience. Maybe things change when you drop 50 grand on equipment. If so, I'll NEVER get that kind of love from a dealer.

Good on you for taking care of this issue for yourself.

 

[Tractor_Jim_CT]

Hi guys - a little update and question. Called the company repairing my cylinder and was told the rod also bent and would need to be straighten on top of the seals.
Said it was $80 to straighten the rod and at $100 per hour I was looking at a $300 bill. I found a new cylinder range from $450 to $550 at a couple online Kubota part sellers and was wondering is the current metal rod not as strong from being bent and then straightened out? My point is for $300, would it have been better to have bought new as my concern is the straighten rod will eventually bend again sooner than a new rod. I have to take the guys word the rod was bent as I have no way of telling, but thought $300 was a little rich.

 

[JWR]

How much does it cost you to stop work at that shop ? I do not see a reasonable way for that rod to get bent. If in fact it is bent it may be so little as to be negligible. If I were in your shoes (unless it is badly bent which ought to show) I would have the seals replaced and go ahead as if it never happened. That may cost you $80 to $100 bucks ? If it turns out that it cannot be ignored long term then you are stuck and eventually buy the replacement. I would not worry at all about bending it during your use -- regardless of whether it had been straightened or not. I'll bet you cannot devise a way to intentionally bend it in anything resembling normal use.

 

[Dave M7040]

Jim
I had not seen JWR's post when writing mine.

First a simple lesson in metallurgy. Take a metal clothes hanger and bend it. Now try and straighten it where the bend occurred. You cannot do it!
There was a time when traveling circuses were the norm. A circus strong man would challenge anyone in the audience to a contest of strength.
He would take a metal bar and, with great dramatic effort, bend it. Now the audience member who really believed he was as strong entered the ring and was told to straighten out the rod the strongman had just bent. No one could do it. The deforming of steel produces an effect called work hardening. Bending the rod work hardened the rod.

A long time to answer your question. The straightened rod will be as strong or stronger than it ever was.

In an earlier post you had talked about being disappointed that the ends of this cylinder's connection to your loader frame grease job was not done well if at all.

The result of a stiff joint at either end of a hydraulic cylinder is a bent rod. The stiffness imposes a bending load on the cylinder push rod. Its design calls for pivoting ends to avoid a bending moment. A stiff end joint compromises the pivoting. Install a new cylinder and not correct whatever causes the joint to become stiff and again you will have leaking new cylinder.

I think the extra $150 to $250 for a new cylinder is better kept in your pocket.

I wound not hesitate to ask the hydraulic company, in the name of improving your knowledge of hydraulics, to show you how they know the rod is bent. If you do it in a way that is not accusatory but rather curiosity on your part, I think you will find their response positive.

Dave M7040

 

[rich bx]

Hi guys - a little update and question. Called the company repairing my cylinder and was told the rod also bent and would need to be straighten on top of the seals.
Said it was $80 to straighten the rod and at $100 per hour I was looking at a $300 bill. I found a new cylinder range from $450 to $550 at a couple online Kubota part sellers and was wondering is the current metal rod not as strong from being bent and then straightened out? My point is for $300, would it have been better to have bought new as my concern is the straighten rod will eventually bend again sooner than a new rod. I have to take the guys word the rod was bent as I have no way of telling, but thought $300 was a little rich.

Hi Jim -
My Cylinder went like yours as well. If you trust the hydraulic shop, they are probably telling you the truth about the bent ram, small bend is hard to see w/o tools.
I'd probably buy a new one, by the time all is said and done, then you have all new components in the cylinder not just seals and a re-bent ram.
My cylinder was repacked, and it's working fine now.
the cost was like 330 for the repack, no bent ram.


You will read here, the easiest way to bend that ram on the curl is to do forward pushing and backward dragging with the cylinder fully extended. that single cylinder on the BX FEL's seems like a week point. It prob is bent if you did much of that. I do (well did until I read here) too.
good luck-