Buying an argon cylinder

[joshuabardwell]

I put up a Want-To-Buy ad on Craigslist recently, looking for an argon cylinder. Somebody contacted me saying he had a 300 cf cylinder (empty) that he'd sell me. I have some reservations because nobody around here sells larger than 125 off-lease, but we talked about it and he said if you have a corporate account, you can buy larger cylinders and then if you end up selling them, they're free and clear. That's how he said he came to own these cylinders.

He says that there are several stamps on the neck, from small/old welding supplies, and that there is an Airgas label on the cylinders. I expressed that my main concern was being sure that I could get them filled, and I proposed that he take the cylinder down to Airgas and get it filled up, keep the receipt, and I'd pay him for the cylinder and the gas.

Do you guys have any input? I offered $200 for the cylinder (empty) plus the cost of the gas. I don't want to end up buying a cylinder that I can't get filled (e.g. because it's leased). I talked on the phone with the LWS and they said that they could fill the cylinder, but they'd have to send it out--no exchanges. Given how long it's likely to take me to go through a 300 cf cylinder, I think that's acceptable, especially when you factor in the savings of filling a 300 vs. an 80 or 125 cf tank.

 

[joshuabardwell]

More info coming in. Airgas says that they will not refill the cylinder without a bill of sale on the seller's letterhead, or some other way to confirm that it's not a leased tank. The seller says that the cylinders were purchased from a metal supply company that purchased them in a lot at auction. Potentially, if I could produce the auction bill of sale and the bill of sale from the metal supply company, that would establish that they're not leased, but I'm not sure that's a good position to be in. If anything ever happened to those documents, I'd be up a creek.

 

[JN4310]

It could be a good deal, but there can be issues with large customer owned cylinders. Check out WeldingWeb.com. Lots of posts about this issue there.

 

[Arc weld]

The guy is full of it! DON'T buy that cylinder. Of course if you put an ad looking for a cylinder, every crooked weasel will come out of the woodwork offering to sell you a cylinder that was supposed to have been returned. As far as I know, Airgas does not sell cylinders that size. They make their money leasing the larger cylinders. If you buy any cylinder ask to see a copy of the receipt and/or where they had it exchanged. There are few places that sell cylinders but they are mostly smaller independant distributors. Their cylinders would have their sticker on them and possible their name on the neck ring or no name at all on the neck ring. If you take a cylinder in that wasn't a customer owned cylinder, they could confiscate it. If the cylinder is old, it may need a hydrotest to be re-certified. That's about $35 and you could wait a long time to get it back. Have seen several times where someone bought cylinders for cheap at an auction or estate sale only to find out they are lease cylinders and they threw their money away. Auctioneers should held liable but I don't think they are.

About a year ago the place I was working, at the time, got a call from a guy asking if they wanted to buy some of their acetylene cylinders. He had a sea can full of them, over 30 cylinders! Some were still full. What the company should have done is tell the guy to stop by so they could see the cylinders. Then they could have him charged with theft and/or possession of stolen property. The cylinders are quite unique in the industry. They were Air Liquide Altops with the built in regulators. Nobody else has them and Air Liquide does not sell them.

 

[Mark @ Everlast]

Joshua, these days, I wouldn't touch that deal...especially if Air Gas is involved. If there is NO stamp on the cylinder neck you are clear, but as it is, I had a couple of bottles given to me, both that were "owned"...but neither company I tried would fill them. One would claim them, but would not fill them for me...but was not the last company that filled them.

 

[Shield Arc]

Around here I'm not sure you can buy the 300 + bottles, most likely you can. I own several 250s, all the privately owned bottles here have a yellow sticker with a black P on them.
In your case I'd have the guy meet you down at the local welding supply you use, and if they say they will fill it, then I'd buy it. I read stories all the time where people buy bottles, then can't get them filled.

 

[joshuabardwell]

In your case I'd have the guy meet you down at the local welding supply you use, and if they say they will fill it, then I'd buy it. I read stories all the time where people buy bottles, then can't get them filled.

That seems to be where we're headed. Currently, he says he can't borrow a pickup to take them down, but he'll let me take one down to get it filled myself, and if I have any trouble, he'll give me my money back. But since Airgas says out-and-out they won't fill it without paperwork, I don't see much point in that exercise. I think this deal is souring...

 

[Shield Arc]

I've been dealing with my local welding supply longer than anyone has been working there, 35-years. It is nice I walk in the door, and everyone says Shield! If they told me they would fill a bottle I have no reason not to believe them. I go in there and buy things all the time get to talking, and forget to sign the paper work, they just bill me at the end of the month anyway.

 

[joshuabardwell]

... doing a little more Internet research, it seems that even the auction purchase is not definitive. Found at least one story of a person who bought at auction and had the cylinders repossessed.

 

[Shield Arc]

Oh yeah, I read these stories all the time. You want to make sure you can get it filled first! Or you'll have a big paper weight!

 

[crazyal]

My cylinders have "customer owned" embossed near the neck. Without it they will not fill them. They have an exchange program so you drop off the current cylinder they just swap it for a full one. By doing so you never have to worry about paying for a hydro test. The problem is that none of the gas places around here have anything larger than a "L" so your limited to 122 CuFt. The larger bottles that don't get returned to the gas companies usually have the bottom cut off and become wind chimes.

 

[Arc weld]

If you go to the welding supply, the guy has to be with you. He won't go, you don't even bother. If he's got your money, he'll disappear if you go to the welding supply yourself. You want to be able to exchange the cylinder for a full one. They could claim they don't know which cylinder was yours. I've heard of fill plants misplacing customer owned cylinders. It wouldn't be hard to do considering the fill plant could have 20 to 50,000 cylinders kicking around.

 

[joshuabardwell]

If you go to the welding supply, the guy has to be with you. He won't go, you don't even bother.

I actually had the same idea. He was going to go get it filled himself; we'll just go together. That is, assuming we find some place that says they'll fill it.

 

[Arc weld]

You want to be able to take your empty in and come back with a full one on the same visit to the LWS.

 

[namyessam]

The guy is full of it! DON'T buy that cylinder. Of course if you put an ad looking for a cylinder, every crooked weasel will come out of the woodwork offering to sell you a cylinder that was supposed to have been returned. As far as I know, Airgas does not sell cylinders that size. They make their money leasing the larger cylinders. If you buy any cylinder ask to see a copy of the receipt and/or where they had it exchanged. There are few places that sell cylinders but they are mostly smaller independant distributors. Their cylinders would have their sticker on them and possible their name on the neck ring or no name at all on the neck ring. If you take a cylinder in that wasn't a customer owned cylinder, they could confiscate it. If the cylinder is old, it may need a hydrotest to be re-certified. That's about $35 and you could wait a long time to get it back. Have seen several times where someone bought cylinders for cheap at an auction or estate sale only to find out they are lease cylinders and they threw their money away. Auctioneers should held liable but I don't think they are.

About a year ago the place I was working, at the time, got a call from a guy asking if they wanted to buy some of their acetylene cylinders. He had a sea can full of them, over 30 cylinders! Some were still full. What the company should have done is tell the guy to stop by so they could see the cylinders. Then they could have him charged with theft and/or possession of stolen property. The cylinders are quite unique in the industry. They were Air Liquide Altops with the built in regulators. Nobody else has them and Air Liquide does not sell them.

I purchased a 300 cf tank from Airgas back in 8/07. I have the receipt right in front of me. I'm not saying if the tank is privately owned or not, but they do sell that size.

 

[joshuabardwell]

I purchased a 300 cf tank from Airgas back in 8/07. I have the receipt right in front of me. I'm not saying if the tank is privately owned or not, but they do sell that size.

I think that's highly variable, depending on location. My local Airgas doesn't sell any larger than either 80 or 125 cf. Anything larger than that must be leased. Same deal with Praxair, except I'm sure they sell up to 125.

 

[joshuabardwell]

You want to be able to take your empty in and come back with a full one on the same visit to the LWS.

Neither Airgas nor Praxair have indicated to me that they will do this with a user-owned cylinder of this size. I believe this is because they don't sell cylinders of this size, so they don't have stock of user-owned cylinders to trade out.

 

[Stimw]

Here is what you want to see. I won't even consider a cylinder without it!

 

[Shield Arc]

You don't see these very often.

 

[ultrarunner]

You don't see these very often.

Hey... had two of those in my medical gas room last year.

Just think if those cylinders could talk... could have been anywhere in the world... on a submarine or airship...

The supplier had not even noticed the mark.

My neighbor and good friend as I was growing up was the plant superintendent for Pacific Oxygen...

Every week they were recovering cylinders and a few times folks went to jail... not someone bringing one in... it was a business that had about 20 of them.

He set me up with a couple of 1800 pound oxygen cylinders and I have never had a problem.

I also would bring him smaller cylinders I would buy and he would inspect and hydro and I later resold them...

Made enough to pay for my welding equipment.

I now use a local Fire Extinguisher company that does their own hydro testing... I can drop off a cylinder in the morning and pick it up later that day.