building a dirt buggy

[855Idiot]

Keep up the good work!

I also built a Buggy using an existing donor car.
My Buggy was built with an 1982 Subaru 4X4.

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This was built as a recreational trail buggy and serves it's purpose well.
Good Luck,
Glenn

 

[Renze]

I need some ideas now:

last week i sawed some floor boards, and fabricated a piece of firewall to match the original mounting of the pedal tray.

I hung the radiator and battery in the front, just for mockup.

Now i need radiator hoses: i used garden hose once, to replace a cracked cab heater hose in the cab of our 5245. That didnt last long as it couldnt handle the temperature.

The engine is a cast iron block with aluminium heads: Which means i need the original all steel radiator, and an old, higher capacity, all copper Zetor radiator wouldnt work, as Galvanic corrosion would occur between the copper and the aluminium.

Anyways, what will work for water pipes ? Galvanised pipes will propably smudge their zinc coat all over the internals of the aluminium head, which may cause a heat exchange problem between the head and the water.
Stainless pipes are too expensive.

Will standard steel pipes work ? The block is iron too, so i dont expect any funny reactions in the Galvanic chain...

Can i just use steel pipes, or are cast iron blocks treated in any way to prevent rust, that standard steel pipes dont have ?
Or does cooling liquid have a chemical additive to stop internal corrosion ?

 

[patrick_g]

Renze, Most of my buggy experience is in air cooled (VW bug) powered machines with either modified VW beatle pans or custom tube frames so I have little experience with "Camels" (AKA water pumpers) i.e. water cooled buggies. Surely you have access to hoses capable of holding full radiator pressure at temps exceeding automotive cooling system's temps.

If you don't really need the weight up front you can mount the radiator horizontal above the engine and probably find off the shelf hoses that will reach, especially if you join multiple hoses with pipe fittings. Iron or steel pipe fittings isolated from touching dissimilar metals aren't a big corrosion worry. You may be able to find some plastic fittings able to take the pressure and temps.

Dune buggies (especially sand rails) typically run light in the front and can wheelie fairly easy so for that approach radiator in front is not mandatory but don't corner the best too light in front. For good cornering characteristics you need to lean more toward the Baja racer type setup with a better weight distribution and maximum suspension travel.

Just loosing a lot of weight on the car changes the suspension tuning significantly. Whereas critical damping is good for handling you might want to consider some changes. If the donor car was sprung and shocked for average loading then after loosing a lot of weight the springs are equivalent to HD overload springs now and the shocks no longer provide critical damping. I'm sure you know the concept I describe, I'm not taking you to school but just trying to be sure my general idea translates.

Warning technical content follows: There are three possible
damping conditions in your suspension: 1. underdamped, 2. critically damped, and 3. over damped. Critical damping is desirable and with the right shocks the original donor vehicle not overloaded was probably more or less critically damped. Just removing a bunch of weight makes the suspension correspondingly stiffer (more spring constant for the mass) and no longer critically damped. Contrary to popular erroneous opinion more is not always better in shocks or springs. Said another way, right sizing beats random upsizing.

Proper coolants do have anti-rust compounds and you can buy anti-rust additives suitable for adding to standard off the shelf coolants to boost the anti-rust action.

In deep mud fat tires win. Only if the mud is just a layer of "goose grease" on top of good footing do narrow tires have any advantage. I have been stuck in mud when the mud was less than 1/2 inch deep. This with an automatic tranny and a very gentle throttle foot. I couldn't go up a shallow incline in 4x4 with dually 1 ton Dodge/Cumins. I run 245 R19.5 Michelin mud and snow tires. I got out to string out the winch line, noticed the small depth of the mud and just cleaned out in front of the tires with a shovel as the truck was unable to climb the 1/2 muddy ridge and drove right away up the slope. Had I been running stock sized tires I may not have had to get out. I run W I D E tires on my VW based buggy in back and only slightly oversized in front.

Steel pipes? I don't think there would be any problem if you isolate the pipes electrically, i.e. don't let steel pipes touch a dissimilar metal. The anti-rust in the coolant should protect the pipes and you can add extra anti-rust compound if you like. I'm noto aware of any treatment in cast iron blocks to avoid rust beyond the anti-rust in the coolant.

I ran seawater cooled cast iron block and manifold engines as aux power on sailboats for many years. These engines circulated heated sea water throughout the cooling system and were never drained, were always filled with sea water 24-7 except every few years when the boat might be hauled for a repair or painting. A kindler gentler approach is to cool the engine with fresh water with coolant like in automotive service and use a heat exchanger with seawater in one of the circuits to cool the engine. So happened the boats I bought were raw water cooled not fresh. When I sold the last sailboat I had been living on it was over 20 years old and the block was never pulled for maint. IF you have any luck at all you should do well with a good anti-rust coolant.

If you don't like expanded metal in the floor consider louver panels at the locations most likely to collect dirt. You turn the louvers so they don't scoop up mud and dirt inside the vehicle can fall out.

Pat

 

[Ronbo]

dbartman
Can you start another post about how to make the fish-mouth with a chop saw.

Ron

 

[patrick_g]

My Buggy was built with an 1982 Subaru 4X4.

Good Luck,
Glenn

Yo, Glen! Nice ride dude. I could sure use something like that as a ranch work vehicle, sort of a go anywhere mini-pickup.

The low mounted side panel beside the driver... If that could be made to fold down like a tailgate to facilitate getting in and out and in and out and... yoiur buggy would be the cat's meow. My currne tbuggy is a Myers Manx type fiberglass body on a shortened VW Bug pan with extensive roll cage for the people and engine. I have a modular soft top for it, removable cloth doors with flexible plastic windows etc. It is OK and lots of fun EXCEPT it is a challenge to get in and out quickly so it is frustrating if you have to get out to open and close fences.

Pat

 

[Keith01]

Renze,
Try using exhaust tubing (muffler tubes) Get a bunch of straight tubing from a shop, and a bunch of radiator hose elbows. Hose clamp them fromthe engine to the radiator and you'll be all set. If you want to get fancy, flare the ends of the tubes to help prevent the rubber elbows from blowing off and spraying hot coolant!
For the dissimilar metals in your system, try a sacrificial anode. Usually zinc, as the electrical potential is lower than aluminum, it will rot first, protecting your aluminum. Sailing supplies or online would be a good place to find one.

Good luck, you project looks like a ton of fun.

Keith in South Carolina.

 

[patrick_g]

Renze, If you elect to go with sacrificial anode protection (sacrificial zincs) you will want to electrically bond all of the metal that is in contact with the coolant together Including the zinc. Most folks use coper wire for bonding the metal stuff together. Then until you get a handle on the rate of consumption of the sacrificial anode you will want to check it frequently to see how much is left. It may look pretty knarly after it has been in service for a while but you can wire brush it to get the "gunk" off and renew its operation.

I have successfully used sacrificial zincs for decades. Keith gave you good advice as to availability. Ship chandlers are a good source. Given a choice, I'd buy where the commercial fishing boats buy rather than a "yacht Boutique."

Pat

 

[BTDT]

I think old water heaters also have anodes in/on them somewhere, if you have or know of any laying around.

 

[dbdartman]

dbartman
Can you start another post about how to make the fish-mouth with a chop saw.

Ron

Give me a couple days, Ron, & I'll do a full photo explanation. Need to find some suitable tube (I think I have some 2.5" exhaust around somewhere) & want to wait for slightly less humid weather.

 

[dbdartman]

I think old water heaters also have anodes in/on them somewhere, if you have or know of any laying around.

Hot water tank anodes are magnesium (aluminum is also available). It's located on the tank top & should be a blank 15/16" hex. Not sure how these would protect aluminum (which would not be found in home plumbing). JC Whitney (jcwhitney.com) sells radiator anodes.

 

[patrick_g]

So long as the sacrificial anode is the least noble metal in the system(look at the electromotive serioes which lists the metals in order of potential) you will get some protection. Zinc works good for bronze, brass, steel, stainless, and a host of others.

Aluminum anode will not protect aluminum. You have to go further in the electromotive series with your selection to protect aluminum. If you aren't careful, aluminum or magnesium (or an alloy of both) can act as an anode to "protect" your iron and steel.

Dissimilar metal (AKA electrolytic) corrosion only requires two dissimilar metals to touch and be wetted by an electrolyte (such as water based radiator coolant or whatever.) I have seen aluminum with stainless bolts used to hold crimp on electrical connectors to it where the aluminum mounts were eaten away till the bolts and washers fell through the holes. This was where the unit was exposed to marine air (some salt content.) The crimp connectors often get eaten off first if they aren't burried in good silicone or similar.

Pat

 

[855Idiot]

Yo, Glen! Nice ride dude. I could sure use something like that as a ranch work vehicle, sort of a go anywhere mini-pickup.

Pat

Thanks,

We use it to putter in the hills, but it also works well in the snow.
The rear diff is locked (lincoln locker), the front has cutting brakes allowing
full control on all wheels. You can drive in Fwd, 4wd or 4wd Lo. Have not been stuck yet.
P.M.'d you with the specks--no typo it cost $1,500. to make.

Glenn

 

[Renze]

I know about the sacrifical anode used on boats (did anyone know that the sister ship of the Titanic lost its brass screw because of galvanic corrosion ??) but its not really the way i want to go... the zinc anode will spread itself through the cooling system.

Anyway, my problem is solved: My friend works at a big trucking and logistics company. He got 6 meters of rubber hose from their workshop, for free !
This way we only have to add non-conducting material to the cooling system.


Patrick,

I dont think i'm going to race soft fields anyways. Mostly bush with some slippery pine needles on top. Or a corn field, but farmers dont want us on their corn stubble anymore after they have cultivated it.

On a previous Volvo i used for parts, we ripped 2 tires. To be able to continue racing the mud pool behind the farm (it was so muddy that we could only get to the bale stack or the manure pile with a 4wd tractor) i took away teh rubber, and welded 1" pipes on the rims.

In deep mud where a 2wd tractor had trouble to pass through, the cage wheels gave superb traction, better than a 2wd tractor.
A week or so later, in loose sand, i got stuck every time, because it would have already dug in to the floor pan before the wheels fully turned around.

 

[patrick_g]

Renze, Often piers and docks are found to be wired backwards (hot and neutral reversed) and often no third wire ground connection and sometimes neutral and ground reversed. Anyway hooking up your boat's shore power connection to a poorly maintained dock power distribution sistem can result in significant electrolysis damage to submerged metal parts.

In one severe case in San Diego a guy parked his new twin diesel at one such dock and a couple days later when he fired her up he couldn't back out of his slip even applying massive bursts of power in reverse. A diver confirmed the problem. Both his expensive bronze 3 blade props were nearly gone due to the extreme electrolysis rate.

Congratulations on your creative materials acquisition. How long before we see action pix of you (hopefully without police in pursuit) blasting through a turn in your new buggy?

I have a few too many projects going on simultaneously right now to mess with my buggy so I am really envious of you and of 855idiot too. A little overlapping canvas snapped on his roll cage and his buggy would be nearly water/snow proof. My VW buggy is not plumbed for hot air from the engine whereas both of you guys can easily have a good heater.

Pat

 

[855Idiot]

Before I built my buggy I talked with friends who had built Rock Crawlers.
Everyone of them said they wished they had heaters on board.
Even in competition buggies.

With this in mind, I built in a heater.
When its night time and 20 degrees, I turn the heater all the way up to "extra crispy",
I can almost stay warm.

I've considered side curtains but I'm not sure how to make them.

My advice is if you can put a heater in, put it in!!!

 

[patrick_g]

I consulted with an upholstery shop that had experience with boat canvas and together we came up with removable cloth doors like you see on jeeps, removable sun cover on top and removable side (back?) curtains of just flexible plastic to maximize visibility. It isn't nearly a hermetic seal.

At speed in heavy rain it will let water in and it is drafty/cold in winter (no heater) but it is way better than not having any options.

None of the parts depends on other parts so yo can mix and match, i.e. just sun cover and no doors or back curtains or doors (for weed/branch protection) but open everywhere else, or whatever combination you want up to no doors or covers at all. My windshield is fixed position and can;t be lowered like the old Jeeps. I'd rather have the type that lay out on the hood but oh well, What I have is good enough.

From what I can see in your pix, designing a set of covers/doors for your buggy shouln't be all that tough. You need to consider where the water goes when you are parked and in motion, both with various wind directions. You can sew on little gutter things to prevent water from coming in the doors at the top and or where the different pieces fit together. I can transition between any two configurations in no more than about 3 minutes, some in just seconds.

Even my professional production model soft top I had on my 1943 Military Jeep leaked enough in hard rain to make me glad to have the floor drains.

Oh, by the way... I didn't get the PM with the specs

Pat

 

[dbdartman]

How to fishmouth a tube with a chop saw:

To make a 90 degree tube to tube fishmouth set your chop saw around 35-40 degrees. Align the end of the tube so your cut ends at, or just shy of, the center of the tube, & cut. Rotate your tube 180 degrees, align so the end of the cut is again at, or just shy of, the end of the tube, & cut (see pic #1). This will give you the rough fishmouth (see pic #2). Some minor grinding of the inside of the "points" may be necessary for a tighter fit. When finished, your tubes should fit together as shown in pic #3.

To make a fishmouth at other than a 90 degree angle, the inside angle will need to be increased & outside angle decreased.

Note: A 4" shipping tube was used for illustrative purposes.

 

[Renze]

How to fishmouth a tube with a chop saw:

To make a 90 degree tube to tube fishmouth set your chop saw around 35-40 degrees. Align the end of the tube so your cut ends at, or just shy of, the center of the tube, & cut. Rotate your tube 180 degrees, align so the end of the cut is again at, or just shy of, the end of the tube, & cut (see pic #1). This will give you the rough fishmouth (see pic #2). Some minor grinding of the inside of the "points" may be necessary for a tighter fit. When finished, your tubes should fit together as shown in pic #3.

To make a fishmouth at other than a 90 degree angle, the inside angle will need to be increased & outside angle decreased.

Note: A 4" shipping tube was used for illustrative purposes.

I have worked at a company where they produced a lot of fencing, for construction projects as well as cow stable fences and gates.
The most useful notcher is this:
Almi
We used to drill a hole in top of this hand powered notcher, to be able to actuate the notcher by a mechanical flywheel press.
For miter notches, they bought a belt grinder with exchangeable rollers to match the pipe diameter:Almi
This is a little slower than the punch notcher, but still way quicker and better than using a saw or grinder.

 

[Renze]

Patrick, The eaten brass propellers tale must be an urban legend.. Electrolysis only works with DC, because the material is drawn with the current, from the positive to the negative pole.... with alternating current, there is no noticeable movement of material from one pole to the other...

The main reason for wanting the radiator in the front is heating the passengers: During workable weather there are plenty of other things to do at home. But when it gets chilly in the autumn, and the corn fields in the area are cleared, its the best time to have fun with a buggy.

I'm going to tilt it backwards, and control the air flow with a curtain: In the summer i direct it down, under the buggy, and in the winter i direct it into the passenger cage.


I hope to get along quick, as the corn harvest has broken loose here. A lot of fields are done yet, and it will not take long before they are seeded with winter rye for cover crop or green fertiliser for the winter.

 

[855Idiot]

I fish mouthed every tube on my buggy with an angle grinder...by hand

It's not as hard or time consuming as it sounds.