Buddy clinically dead

[Diamondpilot]

Actually the tow ratings on the 2011 Fords, 2011 Toyota's, and the 2011 GM 3/4 tons and up are the most stringent ever. Most likely GM 1/2 and smaller, Dodge, and Nissan will follow by the mandated 2013 model year cutoff (or mid summer 2012). But the way it looks now most tow ratings will stay the same or go down slightly. Some engines like the torqueless 5.3 GM will really suffer. On average Toyota only lost 250# of tow rating with no changes to the trucks at all. The power house vehicles with good brakes like the bigger engine GM 1/2 tons, the Dodge Hemi, and the Titan will stay about the same like Toyota. Its tough to say what would have happened to Ford because they have all new motors across the line but I would imagine they would have been taking a hit. Not as bad as the 5.3L GM but would not have done as good as the Toyota's.

There is a whole new set of rules that go into effect in 2012 and some of the manufactures have already adapted them. Things like speed up a grade, parking brake only holding the load on a grade, acceleration times, stopping max load in X distance with no trailer brakes, ect. These new rules are pretty tough.

Here its explained in 3 pages.

Tow Ratings Finally Pass the Sniff Test - The Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) - Automobile Magazine

Chris

 

[Duffster]

Not to pick nits but that ain't a 580 either.

Seems to me like a case of cell phonitis or it's ilk.

Excrement happens in 18 wheelers as well.

 

[Verticaltrx]

Sounds like a bad situation all around. Hope everything works out. Seeing as how that is a pintle hitch trailer, I'd have said NO plain and simple to towing that, even if my job depended on it. Did that once with a 14K pintle hitch loaded with a Ditch Witch and it was down right scary. Pintle hitch trailers over 10K are medium duty truck territory, period.

I've long said that loads like that should ONLY be towed by a medium duty truck, but most folks don't listen. They think if the manufacturer says a light duty truck can pull 20K then that's what they'll pull with it. The reason the tow ratings are climbing so high is for no other reason than to sell more trucks. It seems like the only thing they base this on nowadays is power. They want to be better than the other brand, only care about liability enough to make sure it's on the edge of being safe.

Almost as bad are the 1/2 ton trucks rated to tow over 11,000lbs these days. The may have plenty of power and huge brakes, but last time I checked still have very soft springs, relatively light frames, and don't weigh that much. As I said in another thread, my '88 F-250 is only 'rated' to tow something like 7-8K, and it is WAY more truck than those new F-150's.

I'm guilty of sometimes towing more than I should. My father has a 3500 cab-chassis Dodge that we sometimes pull 18k with. It is rated to tow that much, but may not necessarily be safe. I think single tire gooseneck trailers (14k) are about all that a 1-ton pickup should be pulling. To some extent this coincides with the CDL laws as a 14K trailer + 10-11K truck puts you right below CDL requirements. Move up to a tandem dual 20K trailer and IMO you need minimum of a class 4-5 truck. Over 20K is class 6 and up territory.

 

[farmboy12]

Theres new construction goin on right accross the street from my house. I'm always intrigued by equipment, so I keep a good eye on it.

Just the other day, the 4x4 F350 dually 6.0 with the service/toolbox body that I have seen around pulled up with a tandem/dual pintle hitch trailer.

They loaded a Bobcat 442 excavator (16k+) on it. Figure the machine + trailer must be close to 22k, plus the truck was already a super cab with a loaded toolbox body and 3 guys in it. They loaded it on the road and pulled away, just like it was nothin new.

Truck was under some serious strain, imagine that pintle hitch bouncin around during an emergency stop.


Kyle

 

[sandman2234]

My deepest simpathy for your friend and his family.
Just out of curiosity, why don't people put spacers in their pintle hitches to take up some of the slop? It is just a piece of metal, can't be too expensive or hard to build. I have one somewhere, but my pintle hitch trailer has never been more than 1/2 mile from the house and then only pulled by my tractor.

David from jax

 

[timswi]

My sympathies to your friend and his family...I very much hope that he recovers to 100%

I do believe that there is much more to this story...I towed a 9500# travel trailer for years with various 1/2 ton shortbed regular cab Chevy's. Overwieght? Yes, I guess they were. However I experienced serious sway from cross winds, semis etc and the first thing I did was hit the trailer brakes to straighten everything out...That never failed, ever. My guess is that this was a panic situation that a tri-axle couldn't get out of given that you had said that the driver was very experienced..Either that or negative tongue weight which is vitually impossible to deal with at any kind of speed....

I'd love to hear from the driver given that he's back to 90%..Maybe some lessons for all of us could come from him.

 

[David_Kb7uns]

Another problem is all I have seen around here in my area is air brakes on the medium duty and larger equipment haulers. Do not think many of the pickups are set up for air brakes.

We had a accident in the valley here last year where a Isuzu medium duty was pulling like a 10k equipment trailer with landscape equipmenton it, but had no brakes hooked up and it plowed through a body shop when it missed a turn. So truck size matters and so does properly operating brakes.

Haul a 13k tripple axle toy hauler, 14K dump and a 14K equipment trailer with a RAM Cummins 3500 SRW with no problems but good brakes, equalizing hitch, sway control, and load distribution is a must for hiway speeds.

If you do much towing of odd loads with a bumperpull then you need to get a good trailer tongue scale, it makes things easier to manage.

Sherline Trailer Tongue Weight Scales

David Kb7uns

 

[slowzuki]

I'll add again to the folks who think a current trucks have inflated tow ratings, at least with Ford, the current F150 has more power, more braking, more weight, higher capacity tires stronger springs frame etc than the 1980's 1/2 tons being compared. The 11,300 lb tow rated F150 is the max payload package with max tow package. Most still have only a 5000 or 8000 lb tow rating.

The F250/350 also have grown since the 80's. The current generation is bigger and stronger in every way than an old F250/350. The old 250 really dissappeared with the Superduty, which is really a 350 with a 250 badge on it. Not that this really mattered before, people towed huge gooses with the old F250/350 too.

This isn't just sales, its why the weights and physical sizes of trucks has been growing so much lately.

 

[JB4310]

I'm not gonna argue about the weight and I'm sorry someone was hurt/killed, but I think there had to be some driver error involved for the trailer to lose control on an open highway like that.
Fishtailing to me means he locked up the brakes, which may suggest he was traveling to fast for the conditions.

I do agree we are pushing the limits on these class 3-5 trucks, to the point where if something does start to go wrong there is nothing in reserve for recovery.

JB

 

[Verticaltrx]

I'll add again to the folks who think a current trucks have inflated tow ratings, at least with Ford, the current F150 has more power, more braking, more weight, higher capacity tires stronger springs frame etc than the 1980's 1/2 tons being compared. The 11,300 lb tow rated F150 is the max payload package with max tow package. Most still have only a 5000 or 8000 lb tow rating.

The F250/350 also have grown since the 80's. The current generation is bigger and stronger in every way than an old F250/350. The old 250 really dissappeared with the Superduty, which is really a 350 with a 250 badge on it. Not that this really mattered before, people towed huge gooses with the old F250/350 too.

This isn't just sales, its why the weights and physical sizes of trucks has been growing so much lately.

I still think the tow ratings are more of a competition between manufacturers than anything else. Heck, the GCWR of the new F-150's is more than that of a 90's F-350 dually. Park those two trucks side by side, which is a heavier built truck?


Edit: Another example just came to mind. My father has a new Dodge 3500 dually, the tow rating on it is very close to our '75 C60 dump-truck. Had either of those trucks been in the same situation as the OP posted, which would have ended up the same way?

 

[MikeA57]

My next door neighbor recently went through the same type thing. He was pulling a skid steer on a trailer behind his F150. He didn't have it tied down well enough and when he put the brakes on it shifted on the trailer. The weight of it shifting was enough to pick the front end of the truck up and pitch it into a ditch rolling the truck and trailer. He got out OK, but the truck was totaled and then he had to repair the SS he was borrowing.

Hope everything turns out OK for Tim. Prayers sent.

Mike

 

[Arsavoie]

This is true. If you look close in the pictures, it is a tandem dual 20k gooseneck trailer. It would be difficult to position a backhoe on that trailer so that it didn't have enough tongue weight. He did do a good job chaining it on the trailer though. It sure didn't go anywhere.

I am sorry to here about your friend

What picture are you looking at cause all I see is the backhoe on it's side I looks like the trailer is. Way to short for the load it was hauling and that would make it fish tale with a heavy load

 

[slowzuki]

I don't think you're correct, Ford used to have a blanket 20,000 lb combined weight rating for all the 250/350's back then. So the lighter trucks could tow more than the heavier dually, but the dually was still going to have more than 11,300 lb rating. No one used this tow rating obviously or 5th wheel trailers and goosenecks wouldn't have sold.

Having worked on and around those 80's trucks, yes they have heavy rear axles, and heavy frames, but the newer max tow rated F150's also have heavy frames and much larger front rotors and big rear discs. Part of the heavy frame section on the F250/350's is due to the long box/crew cab options that have a long frame. To get the bed capacity on a long frame you need a deep section frame. The F150's don't offer a heavy bed capacity.

Lots of old dump trucks had low tow ratings, lots of reasons from poor brakes to weak drivelines but that doesn't mean you need a big dump truck to tow a trailer.

I still think the tow ratings are more of a competition between manufacturers than anything else. Heck, the GCWR of the new F-150's is more than that of a 90's F-350 dually. Park those two trucks side by side, which is a heavier built truck?


Edit: Another example just came to mind. My father has a new Dodge 3500 dually, the tow rating on it is very close to our '75 C60 dump-truck. Had either of those trucks been in the same situation as the OP posted, which would have ended up the same way?

 

[schmism]

Granted it sucks when someone close gets seriously hurt.

But before jumping to conclusions about capacities and capabilities of an entire group of vehicles, Im certainly going to look at a number of key data points associated with the serious accident.

1) what was the speed of the vehicle at the time it crashed (easily obtained from vehicle black box, or smart phone data or onstar data)
2) What was the status of the drivers cell phone at the time of the accident.
3) what other exterior forces may have contributed to the accident. (such as a tire blowing out on the trailer, being cut off, functionality of the brake controller and trailer brakes etc)

Any drawn conclusions about the accident are worthless without solid answers to the above simple questions.

 

[Verticaltrx]

I don't think you're correct, Ford used to have a blanket 20,000 lb combined weight rating for all the 250/350's back then. So the lighter trucks could tow more than the heavier dually, but the dually was still going to have more than 11,300 lb rating. No one used this tow rating obviously or 5th wheel trailers and goosenecks wouldn't have sold.

Having worked on and around those 80's trucks, yes they have heavy rear axles, and heavy frames, but the newer max tow rated F150's also have heavy frames and much larger front rotors and big rear discs. Part of the heavy frame section on the F250/350's is due to the long box/crew cab options that have a long frame. To get the bed capacity on a long frame you need a deep section frame. The F150's don't offer a heavy bed capacity.

Lots of old dump trucks had low tow ratings, lots of reasons from poor brakes to weak drivelines but that doesn't mean you need a big dump truck to tow a trailer.

While I agree with a lot of what you say, it still doesn't seem right to be pulling as much as people do these days with the trucks they do. To me it's all about having the right tool for the job. It just is a much easier, calmer, and safer towing experience when you have plenty of truck for what you are towing. Same as having a tractor big enough for the implement you are working with. It's more productive to have a well matched pair. Maybe I'm just old school, but 20K trailers are a good combo for most MDT's, where as 10K trailers are a good size for most 3/4 and 1-ton trucks. I'll be real interested to see how the new SAE tow ratings affect the different manufacturers.

 

[Renze]

Granted it sucks when someone close gets seriously hurt.

But before jumping to conclusions about capacities and capabilities of an entire group of vehicles, Im certainly going to look at a number of key data points associated with the serious accident.

1) what was the speed of the vehicle at the time it crashed (easily obtained from vehicle black box, or smart phone data or onstar data)
2) What was the status of the drivers cell phone at the time of the accident.
3) what other exterior forces may have contributed to the accident. (such as a tire blowing out on the trailer, being cut off, functionality of the brake controller and trailer brakes etc)

Any drawn conclusions about the accident are worthless without solid answers to the above simple questions.

Thats the most sensible comment on this accident so far. You might hold a grudge against the employer who sent him out, its understandable.. But right ?? cant tell.. It really is horrible to see a friend of yours get hurt, so i principally refrain from guessing for the circumstances, as we simply dont know it. Lets not start a witchhunt before the traffic authorities have investigated it.

At my former employer where we built 5th wheel trailers for light duty trucks, we adopted Knorr EBS braking on all that we built: Air brakes with electronic stability control. We had some dare devils that tested the system with an improperly loaded trailer (just loaded at the back, with a 1500kg tail lift platform) and the EBS system would eliminate all sway by braking left and right intermittently. It even brakes to control a roll in a corner.
One might ask oneself if air brakes, ABS and EBS should be mandatory on over 10k towing. There is an 80% chance that a sway resulting in overturn, would have been prevented by such advanced safety systems.

 

[High Compression]

Sounds like a bad situation all around. Hope everything works out. Seeing as how that is a pintle hitch trailer, I'd have said NO plain and simple to towing that, even if my job depended on it. Did that once with a 14K pintle hitch loaded with a Ditch Witch and it was down right scary. Pintle hitch trailers over 10K are medium duty truck territory, period.

I've long said that loads like that should ONLY be towed by a medium duty truck, but most folks don't listen. They think if the manufacturer says a light duty truck can pull 20K then that's what they'll pull with it. The reason the tow ratings are climbing so high is for no other reason than to sell more trucks. It seems like the only thing they base this on nowadays is power. They want to be better than the other brand, only care about liability enough to make sure it's on the edge of being safe.

Almost as bad are the 1/2 ton trucks rated to tow over 11,000lbs these days. The may have plenty of power and huge brakes, but last time I checked still have very soft springs, relatively light frames, and don't weigh that much. As I said in another thread, my '88 F-250 is only 'rated' to tow something like 7-8K, and it is WAY more truck than those new F-150's.

I'm guilty of sometimes towing more than I should. My father has a 3500 cab-chassis Dodge that we sometimes pull 18k with. It is rated to tow that much, but may not necessarily be safe. I think single tire gooseneck trailers (14k) are about all that a 1-ton pickup should be pulling. To some extent this coincides with the CDL laws as a 14K trailer + 10-11K truck puts you right below CDL requirements. Move up to a tandem dual 20K trailer and IMO you need minimum of a class 4-5 truck. Over 20K is class 6 and up territory.

:thumbsup:

 

[High Compression]

Question: Most of us on TBN have tractors bigger that what we need and yet we always want bigger. Why is it the other way around with the tow equipment? Oh I can pull that with a half ton, oh that's no problem for my one ton. I've been doing it for years that way...:confused2::confused2: I haven't read anyone post, I don't need that M or L series Kubota instead of their BX, cuz they have been doing it that way for years.

 

[Soundguy]

Not everybody thinks that way.. or thinks that way forever.

I used to pull alot with a half ton. when it was feasable.. I got a ford f450 DRW and a GN trailer, and have now retired the half ton and all but retired the bumper pull trailer.

i hate white knuckling it when heading downt he road especially on a long haul knowing im right at the limit of my vehicle or trailer capabilities.. not fun..

soundguy

 

[Verticaltrx]

Question: Most of us on TBN have tractors bigger that what we need and yet we always want bigger. Why is it the other way around with the tow equipment? Oh I can pull that with a half ton, oh that's no problem for my one ton. I've been doing it for years that way...:confused2::confused2: I haven't read anyone post, I don't need that M or L series Kubota instead of their BX, cuz they have been doing it that way for years.

Because a lot of people think it is 'macho' to see how much their truck can pull. Granted, this wasn't probably the OP's case I'm sure.

I hear it all the time, especially from the type that have stacks on diesel pickups, how much they have pulled, hauled etc. Some of them claim they tow upwards of 30K with 1-ton pickups. Not sure if that is true, but I have seen a few around here hauling backhoes and small dozers. Also saw a guy hauling 14 5x6 round bales on a gooseneck, the hay alone would weigh over 25K. Not sure if it's being macho, cheap, or just ignorant, but I try to steer clear of them.