Broke bolt dilemma -- HELP!

[montejw]

Is there enough room for a 90* drill attachment and shorty bit? If you get a left hand bit, use that. Or try a righty, drill a hole and tap in an "easy out".

 

[AlanB]

If it helps, I can lend you an aviation right angle drill and bits. You would not want to buy one I can assure you but I can post you one and you could send it back after the job.

The Yard Store, Aircraft Tools & Aluminum

It will give you more clearance to work then most of what is being suggested.

Still, if it is that tight, it will be a bugger to get out at best.

I cannot see the pics on the computer I am on at the moment, BUT,

They make special weld through bolts. They are used in the automotive exhaust industry. Let me go find a couple links, easier then explaining it. Well, I cannot find them now, I thought it was Daytona Mig that had them, but I do not see them on their website.

You may also be able to weld on a pin with resistance welding.

I would look at it for a while before jumping in if you can, other thoughts and ideas may come to you as you study it, and look at it from different angles.

 

[3RRL]

John,
I would bite the bullet and take all that stuff off.
I don't know if you can even get in there with a right angle drill and then exert enough force to drill that stud anyway. Then you are stuck trying to get an easy out or left handed tap and screw in there. Same problem...you need enough room to exert force so they go in the drilled hole.

With that stuff out of the way, your work will be a lot more pleasant. It's tough enough to do a repair like that as it is. Sometimes what appears to be the easy way out ends up being more work after all. Who needs the extra aggravation (and cost if you buy a tool) from working in a confined space like that?
Rob-

 

[workinallthetime]

i have a right angle air drill and they used to get be left handed drill bits from the local parts house all the time, im pretty sure you could work it into position and drill. i think the idea of soaking the bolf for a few days before the removal id very important, ive got a can or 2 of heat riser penitrate you can use also. let me know, you know where i am

 

[CATMAN]

Here's one other thought about using the 90 degree drill and a left-handed drill bit. You can choose the correct lenght of drill bit, then slide bit into hole, then hold drill/chuck up to the bit and tighten the chuck onto the bit.

Sometimes when clearances are really tight and the broken bolt/piece is countersunk into a hole, this procedure provides some help.​

I, personally would try to find a way to hold a bit in the center of the hole if drilling is going to be an option. Predrill a round dowel(that fits in the hole) in the center. This OD of the dowel would just fit/slide into the area where the shank of the old bolt use to be. A wood dowel might be the easiest to find and probably serve the purpose for this function. The centering of your FIRST attempt to drill anything out, can be a real benefit IF you are unsuccessful and later(after you are forced to dissassemble more of the tractor) you find yourself trying to use bits, easyouts, taps, helicoils, etc. {I see this often on engine exhaust manifold studs into cylinder heads.} I believe harbor freight sells "transfer punches"(individually sized centering punch) but I think their max size is 1/2" diameter.

 

[john_bud]

so is this true? that this hole lines up with what would be the head of the nut/bolt

if so whats in the way of useing that hole to work through?

The hole does not line up. It is closer to the numeral 1 in the picture. Also, there are 2 holes symetric about the center line. There is also a 3/8 thick plate in the way that holds the hydraulic pump.

Is the remanent just stuck in a NUT.

No, the remanent is stuck in the engine block. No access to the back of the hole.

AlanB If it helps, I can lend you an aviation right angle drill and bits. You would not want to buy one I can assure you but I can post you one and you could send it back after the job.

AlanB - Thanks for the offer. I will be looking at right angle drills tomorrow - will let you know if there is room or not. I checked out the link. That looks like the tool for the job! If I can't find a reasonable one here, I will probably take you up on the offer. But, I am willing to buy a decent too as that's the way the tool box gets filled!

i have a right angle air drill and they used to get be left handed drill bits from the local parts house all the time, im pretty sure you could work it into position and drill. i think the idea of soaking the bolf for a few days before the removal id very important, ive got a can or 2 of heat riser penitrate you can use also. let me know, you know where i am

That's a good point - heat riser penetrant. I have to go right past the Chev dealer on my way to look at tools. I'll grab a can. Good to have some more on hand.

I, personally would try to find a way to hold a bit in the center of the hole if drilling is going to be an option. Predrill a round dowel(that fits in the hole) in the center. This OD of the dowel would just fit/slide into the area where the shank of the old bolt use to be. A wood dowel might be the easiest to find and probably serve the purpose for this function. The centering of your FIRST attempt to drill anything out, can be a real benefit IF you are unsuccessful and later(after you are forced to dissassemble more of the tractor) you find yourself trying to use bits, easyouts, taps, helicoils, etc. {I see this often on engine exhaust manifold studs into cylinder heads.} I believe harbor freight sells "transfer punches"(individually sized centering punch) but I think their max size is 1/2" diameter.

Catman, good point. I just got off the phone with a buddy who's dad is working to be a machinist. We should all have the energy to try and pick up a new skill set in our 70's! Anyway, he is going to make a centering bushing for me that is the same size as the bolt 5/8" and 1.25" long with a 1/4" hole in it. It will go into the hole in the isolater (#5 in the picture). Then I hope to be able to get a 90 degree drill up in there and drill a centered 1/4" hole. Left hand drill and potentially a left hand tap to put in a left hand bolt and tighten / loosen the works out. I just have to remove the drag link and the steering cylinder. I will be able to keep the hoses attached.

I looked at the stuff to remove and I think my estimate was low. The Backhoe has to come off or the tractor will be sitting with the nose in the air when other stuff comes off. That can be a slow or fast operation. It's been as little at 15 min to remove and over an hour just to get jacked up lined up, and close enough connect the hoses. The FEL has to come off too as it is on the frame rails and will put a lot of stress on them when the engine cradle is removed. It serves as the tie between the frame rails. Basically, there are MORE items to remove to get to this bolt than are removed to split the tractor! I also don't have a spot on concrete to do this and it is a LOT harder on grass.


I truely appreciate the suggestions on this one. Thanks guys!
jb

 

[Willl]

Is it broke flush with the block ?

Can you get the rubber bushing out ?

 

[chatme]

I must be missing something ? someone said use a drimel tool. that should work with a 1/2 cutter wheel. just cut a slot in the bolt and heat a screw driver and bend it to fit the slot and retemper the screw driver and twist it out. This will not work ?

 

[john_bud]

Will, It's not flush with the block. It's about 1/4" down the hole.

Chatme,
There isn't any room to get a dremel tool in there to cut a slot. It's in a real "bugger" of a spot!

jb

 

[BTDT]

so is this true? that this hole lines up with what would be the head of the nut/bolt

if so whats in the way of useing that hole to work through?

Can you drill an access hole in this frame to allow you a straight shot to the broken bolt? Might save a teardown.

 

[john_bud]

Hmmm, maybe. It would be drilling thru about 1 1/2 to 2" of total steel to get there and I would need a 18 - 24" long drill bit. Depending on how things go, that might be an option, but that much drilling is scary. Also, the hydraulic lines to/from the pump are in the first "slot" and the radiator is in the second "slot". Hmmm, getting the radiator out of the way is a big job - probably it would be about the same time to just strip it down at that point.

Interesting idea though.

Thanks,
jb

 

[laurencen]

hi,the dremel idea is to use a 3/32 dia engraving/burr, from the bolt face instead of drilling cut a slot, it will look like a screw head when complete, then use a screw driver to take it out like a screw, assuming you can get in with a dremel hand tool flex shaft, heck you could cut a cross shape and use a large phillips

 

[john_bud]

OH!

I wasn't thinking of it in that direction. Not sure if my hands are that steady.


Here's what I did so far. My buddies dad came thru and produced 3 drill guides that will go into the housing. They are the diameter of a 5/8 bolt and 1.25" long with ID of 1/8, 1/4 and 3/8". I can slip in a guide and should have less of a chance of snapping a drill bit off and making it much worse. Also the hole should be close enough to the center.

Stopped by the local Chevy dealer. They moved the parts department into the service area, but were unfortunately closed on Sat. There was a lone tech working on a truck and he asked what I was looking for. Told him the heat riser penetrant stuff. He reached over and GAVE me a squirt can that was nearly empty, but plenty full for my uses! Nice guys those Chevy techs!

Next stop was the farm store for a 90 degree drill. They had Milwaukee and DeWalt in electric. $119 and $159 respectively. Only one CP reversible air drill for $77. When I say only one, I mean I bought the last one they had.

Then stopped at the tool store that has lots of drills and taps to get a left hand drill tap to tap the bolt remnant - but they close at 12:00 and it was 12:05. Dark and closed up tight. Rats!

Went thru my drawers in the tool chest and found 4 left hand bits. Looks like I will have to use a RT 1/8 but a L 1/4".

The remnant is bathing in the GM penetrant (sticky feeling stuff). May try and drill the 1/8" hole tomorrow. I've got that spunky gotta try out the new tool feeling that is hard to control!

jb

 

[diyDave]

If you can find one, you might want to try a Souix Falls close quarter 3/8 inch drill, its not a true right angle maybe 100 or 110 degrees. Try the bushing routine, and get a 1/4 inch center hole drilled in, as square as possible. Then try to get it to 3/8, then thread it WITH A LEFT HANDED TAP, FOR A LEFT HANDED BOLT! This assumes you can get a tap in there, in the first place. If you accomplish this herculean effort, with out getting hot drill debris into your eye(s), then thread in a left hand bolt, and try to extract the broken bolt thataway. Of course try to remove any lateral pressure on that bolt/mount before you monkey with it too hard! The LAST thing you want to end up with is a busted off drill or tap or bolt in that hole you are making! Good luck!

 

[gary pate]

Hey guys, how about wax.

 

[john_bud]

Hip Hip --> Hooray!

Or maybe it should be "plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is"!

Well the bolt has met it's match.

I couldn't wait and decided to just pop in the 1/8" hole. I put in the bushing and just lightly drilled.

Here's a picture of the bushings or drill guides.

Then took a look with the little mirror. Uh-oh. As I feared, the engine had sagged and the hole in the block was no longer aligned with the mount. SNIT!


If you look hard, you can see the drill spot on the bolt part and see that it is well off center.

Had to raise the engine up on one side about 1/4". Now remember that there is another 5/8 bolt 8" away from this one, two mounts that bolt to 2 locations on the transmission with 3 3/4" bolts and the rear end is bolted to the frame rails. The frame is 3/8" C channel 6" tall. Tough stuff, especially with about 10# of extra steel scabbed onto the weak areas! Raised the tractor up and put a 4x4 under the oil pan, resting on bolt heads so the pan wouldn't take a beating. Then undid the transmission mount to the frame rail. Used a chisel as a wedge under that mount to raise it up some. Then wiggled the whole deal with a 5' long pry bar. All while using the CP 90 degree drill and trying not to snap off a bit. Left hand bits, naturally.

This is the 4x4 under the edge of the block. I raised the tractor up with the FEL then carefully lowered it down to help force it back into alignment.

After I got the engine aligned (more on that later), I drilled with the 1/4" LH bit. It went on, but the drill would bind easily and that was very scary. So, it was drill a bit, take it out and inspect, then drill a bit and inspect. After a short while it was no longer drilling, so I went back to the 1/8" bit to get a pilot hole. It really was scary as any binding would snap the bit and really be a mess. After a dozen checks, it suddenly had a loose feel. I looked and it had turned! Yippie. Up sized to the 1/4" and drilled/checked some more. Did I mention the use of the GM penetrant? after every other check, it got a squirt. In between squirts were sprays with brake cleaner. During the checks, I would try and spin the bolt part with screw drivers, chisels, picks and what not. It did spin! More yippee! and Hooray! But the holes was well off and the bit now REALLY wanted to bind and snap. Big SNIT!

More wedging of the mounts, diddling with the weight of the machine on the 4x4 and prying with the 5' bar and my 4' crows foot pry bar.

Then I switched to a larger 5/16 LH bit with no bushing. The bolt part spun out part way.


You can see the threads of the bolt in the gap. sort of.

Well, the reason it was only out partway, is the alignment was still off. After mucho more diddling with it, I finally had my wife come out and pull down on the 5' bar while drilling. ZIP! out it came.

You can see the amount of mis-alignment.

Tools of the trade...

I got a new grade 8 bolt - there was a grade 5 in there. And was able to tread it in. I added a flat washer and lock washer under the bolt head to keep it from bottoming. Assuming that was the root issue. Bolt bottomed and the knuckle dragger that tightened the bolt down (me) hit bottom and over torqued.

I REALLY want to THANK YOU ALL for the support, suggestions and offers to send specialized tools. I'm deeply touched. This could have been a really time consuming ugly fix. With your help, my buddies dad's help, and all it was "only" a 5 1/2 hour chore to remove the bolt remnant and get a new one in there. By the way, I gave my son a bonus of $5 for seeing the bolt half on the ground and bringing it to my attention right away. Without that bolt, a cycle of super high stresses would have cracked structural members and probably lead to a major catastrophe. TLB's don't like to be shorted on the support bolts!


Thanks again!
jb

 

[montejw]

Hip Hip --> Hooray!

Or maybe it should be "plop plop fizz fizz, oh what a relief it is"!

Well the bolt has met it's match.

I couldn't wait and decided to just pop in the 1/8" hole. I put in the bushing and just lightly drilled.

Here's a picture of the bushings or drill guides.....

That's cool! The drill bushings look like something to remember, pretty key to getting this bolt out.

 

[john_bud]

That's cool! The drill bushings look like something to remember, pretty key to getting this bolt out.

no kidding! Some guys can drill a plumb line. I can't drill straight with a drill press!! I really don't think I could have done it and not broken a drill bit without those bushings. It's good to have friends with skills...

jb

 

[JerryG]

Man did you save yourself a lot of work. Glad that you got it out. Some might call me over cautious, but I think that I would go ahead and change out the other bolt with a new one.

 

[dberry]

Glad you got it out! Too late to help, but maybe help someone else some day, I would have heated it gently with a propane torch several times between the penetrant. Sometimes a little heating and cooling can spread things out just enough to help.