Broke bolt dilemma -- HELP!

[john_bud]

Hi,

Found a bolt on the ground. The end shows it snapped off flush with just little tab sticking up.

The blue paint told that it came from the Ford tractor and a search found that it is one of the two bolts that hold the engine to the engine cradle. Bolt goes in to the front of the engine block thru a rubber isolated grommet. It's unique to the HD Industrials model 1801 and 4140.

Looking up, you can see the water pump pulley on the right and the radiator hose on the left.

Anyhow, the place where the bolt goes only has about 5-6" of space in front of it and limited space around it. It seems like the only way to get to it is to take the frigging front half of the tractor apart. Remove the nose cone with lights and hydraulic tank, front pump, hyd lines & filter, power steering lines and cylinder and then the front end with the engine cradle. I figure it's about 10-15 hours of work. Not something I wanted to find out !

Any ideas on how to get this sucker out with less stress and effort?

Thanks!

jb

 

[zzvyb6]

How about some pix from the stand back area so we can see hazackly where we get to work from and the clearence issues. i.e. top, bottom, peekaboo and straight in.

 

[john_bud]

ok,

The missing bolt is on the left side.

About 6 inches of total gap between the front end mount and the engine mount.

From the bottom you can see the drag link and steering cylinders under the 6" gap.

You can see there is about 2 1/2 to 3" of verticle opening


This is a bad bolt to break!

 

[CATMAN]

I believe you are taking the photo with a mirror. The reflection points to the broken bolt. I would first try a small flat blade screwdriver and see if it rotates or wiggles at all. (sometimes you luck out and you just rotate it out) The next idea I would try, is a "90 degree" reversible drill (air or electric) with small left-hand drill bits. Sometimes when drilling with left handed bits, the bit will "catch" and the bolt just rotates out for you. I would probably even purchase a 90 degree reversible air drill ($39-$49) for this project if you didn't own one already. At work, I just use a cheap one on the rare occasions that I need one and it works fine, but I am sure glad I own one, when I need it. I would try these ideas first before tearing the tractor down.

 

[CATMAN]

Well, Now that you have more photos, I don't honestly know IF there is enough clearance for a 90 degree reversible air drill. Good Luck on this one.

 

[john_bud]

Well, Now that you have more photos, I don't honestly know IF there is enough clearance for a 90 degree reversible air drill. Good Luck on this one.

That's not the answer that I wanted, but it is the one I expected.... rats.


Anyone else got a miracle in their pocket?

jb


Oh yeah, I initially tried to screw it out with a chisel. The bolt is 5/8's or so and there wasn't a screwdriver of the correct width and short length. A brave chisel got ground down to fit.... it was a cheapie any way.

jb

 

[3RRL]

John,
So sorry to see this post.
I got your PM but am of no help on this one man. That's why I didn't comment in the first place. You need to get a hold of Houdini, I think. That has to be the worst place for a bolt to pop off. Problem is you don't know if it is stuck in there or not. How in the heck are you going to get in there except remove the items in the way?

The suggestion of an angle head drill and left handed drill (if it fits) is a good thing to try. But it will only tell you if the bolt is loose or tight. If it's tight, maybe an easy out after you drill a hole in it, but it looks to hard to get in there and do any of that.

Did you look to see if there are any openings whereby they might have access to the bolt in the first place? Or does it look the installation was all done prior to putting all the stuff on/around it? If so, you are doomed to remove it first.

 

[JerryG]

I'm guessing that the broken part is in a blind hole in the block?

 

[john_bud]

Rob,

Rat's ! I was hoping that you had an old machinist trick gizmo that would work.

Unfortunately, I do KNOW that the the other 1/2 of the bolt is still in there. It's about 1/4 " under the surface so to speak. The picture with the mirror shows it -- sort of.

I've had the ENTIRE tractor apart already to do a major repair / resto on it. There isn't any room for anything nor access ports.

Here's a picture of the engine cradle with no engine. It's a touch cleaner in this picture....

As you can see, the camera is about 3-4" under where the engine will eventually be. The bolt hole in question is one one showing at the extreme top. You can see the SOLID steel in front of it. The distance is about 6" as shown in the other pictures. The hole you see is off to the side and is for the hydraulic return and supply. It's pretty full and too far at an angle.

I am getting an idea. Dangerous one at that. Will percolate on it for a day or two to see how it comes....



JerryG, Blind as a bat. That was the first thing I looked for, but knew it was blind.

jb

 

[3RRL]

John,
I am getting an idea. Dangerous one at that. Will percolate on it for a day or two to see how it comes....

You're not thinking what I think you're thinking are you? Maybe stick an arc rod to the end of the bolt and try to wrench that out? Maybe the heat will loosen it up, but if you miss the bolt ...
You can't see in there either, right?

 

[IH3444]

I've encounter this before, but not in such a tight, and almost inacessable place. Usually once the head of the bolt has snapped off, the stress is removed, and the threaded remainder of the bolt with be able to be worked out with either a sharp punch, or chisel as you have tried. I would begin to soak the remainder of the bolt several times a day for at least a week, or longer with a high quality penatrating fluid. Either Kroil, or PC Blaster. I've done this before also. Before I go to work, spray it, and then just after I come home. I had a huge rear axle nut That would not budge once, even with a 4 foot breaker bar. After soaking it for a week, it turned off easy. Besure to remember to tap the area with a hammer for at least 30 seconds after applying the quality penetrator. This helps to work the pen. oil into the threads, and loosen the remaining threaded part of the bolt. I see that your room to work is extremely restricted, but before you go the arc welder rod route, and possibly weld some threads, I would try this possible solution first. Weld on the threads will garantee you'll never get the threaded part out. I wish you the best of luck, and I thought that these major PITA things only happen to me. The second thing I would try is to get a 3/16, or smaller cobalt drill to try and drill a small dimple, or pocket along the outer edge of the bolt, with a cheap Harbor Freight 90 degree drill. This will give you a point to which you can get the point of a centering punch to try and turn the bolt out. Besure to clean the area with a cheap spray such as WD40 of all drill chips. You will possible damage some threads, but with a new, high quality grade 8 bolt, I doubt this will have any effect on the holding power of the newly installed bolt. GOOD LUCK

 

[AntrimMan]

You could make a protector sleeve from a piece of 1/2 copper water supply before doing the welding thing. That will mostly protect the internal threads depending on how fussy you are in the preparation.

 

[IH3444]

Still risky even with a protective sleeve. One little weld arc splatter can made this more difficult.

 

[EddieWalker]

John,

Your situation is an extreme one that I've never seen before. Wish I knew the answer and could offer something that the others haven't already come up with.

Do you have a Matco or other high end tool dealer? Maybe they have some specialty tool for this? It's a long shot, but my only other tought is JB weld and allot of prayer.

Keep us posted, if it's happened to you,then it's gonna happen to somebody else.

Eddie

 

[hazmat]

Perhaps this will help Good luck.

from

Church Sign Generator

 

[SPYDERLK]

It must be obvious to some but I am totally confused by the pictures.

The 1st question that comes to my mind is "how long is the full bolt and would anew one angle into the hole?

If so, if you drilled, at what depth below the surface would the drill bit tip touch the remanent bolt.

Is there a straight shot radially away from the hole axis through which a 1" dia X 6"L handle could pass into an open area. If so, does this straight shot, and the spacial translation to the open area, exist at only one point along the extended hole axis, or for an extended length that could allow the handle to move in/out, toward/ awayfrom hole in a direction // to the hole axis .
If the latter, I have something that could allow you to work down the hole with a required head space of 1.5"minimum. It is set up for rt hand drilling and is capable of about 3/16" drill dia. Rotational power would be applied out in the open area.
larry

 

[laurencen]

If the bolt is not too tight what adout a dremel tool, they jave handsets with a 3/32 bit, it takes a wile but you can cut a slot in the bolt and remove using a screw driver, if you can geta angle drive drill in, drill the hole and use a easy out, a left hand thread also works, if the bolt is too tight to remove when the tap cuts the threads now get a left hand allen screw and thread into the hole, once it bottoms it should come out

 

[john_bud]

It must be obvious to some but I am totally confused by the pictures.

The 1st question that comes to my mind is "how long is the full bolt and would anew one angle into the hole?

IT's a 5/8 - 11 bolt about 3" long originally. Current remnant of the bolt is 2 and 15/16 long. Angle into the hole?? I don't get your meaning.

If so, if you drilled, at what depth below the surface would the drill bit tip touch the remanent bolt.

About 1/4" below the surface the remaining stuck part of the bolt resides.

Is there a straight shot radially away from the hole axis through which a 1" dia X 6"L handle could pass into an open area. If so, does this straight shot, and the spacial translation to the open area, exist at only one point along the extended hole axis, or for an extended length that could allow the handle to move in/out, toward/ awayfrom hole in a direction // to the hole axis .

I just knew I should have stayed awake in that geometry class....

The edge of the engine cradle that holds the isolation bushing is 6" from the inside edge. Arghh-- see picture

#5 is the rubber mounted isolator
#4 is a stud - my tractor has a 5/8-11 bolt in place of the stud

Where #5 is shown is where the engine is. The flange shown is 6" from the isolator when it is in it's correct hole.


I can remove the drag link and steering cylinder that are mounted directly below the 6" gap.

If the latter, I have something that could allow you to work down the hole with a required head space of 1.5"minimum. It is set up for rt hand drilling and is capable of about 3/16" drill dia. Rotational power would be applied out in the open area.
larry

So, Larry, what you got?

 

[schmism]

so is this true? that this hole lines up with what would be the head of the nut/bolt

if so whats in the way of useing that hole to work through?

 

[SPYDERLK]

Angle in-- [is there enuf headspace to get a new bolt of full length in]

Is the remanent just stuck in a NUT.

What I have is a 90 attachment that you drive with a drill. That way the drill stays out of the close in area and headroom rqmt plummets. The drill bits thread in to save the space of a chuck. Im not seeing why you need it tho unless the nut is captive.
larry