Belt for 48" deck

[ldabe]

Now I am completely confused as to what is going on with my electrical for the oil cooler fan.

I take my multimeter and test the voltage with the key on at the wires where I cut the original fan off.

12.29 volts.

I test the jumper cables coming from my car and get

12.30 volts.

I start the PT up and check the voltage again,

14.19 volts.

I try both fans by touching the wires and neither fan turns!!!

Hey guys, what the heck am I missing here?

I don't get this at all :-(

Does anyone have a suggestion?
Has anyone ever run into a situation like this before?

 

[ldabe]

Don't you hate intermitten problems!
David from jax

YES!
But this is really not intermitten, it is more of a mystery...at least to me.

There is no intermittent with the multimeter.

 

[BobRip]

The following relates to my PT422, year 2000. Your machine may differ. What is the voltage at the fan with the fan connected? I suspect close to zero. You probably have a leakage path through the failed component which only shows up with no load..

I have had the thermal switch fail and the fuse holder. The thermal switch is located just behind the driver on his left, in the engine compartment. It is mounted on a block of metal which has the transmission oil going through. You realize that the oil has to be hot to turn the fan on. With the fan connected to the PT and key on, check the voltage drop across the thermal switch (also called thermal relay). If it is 12 volts or so it is either not on (too cold, turns on at 135 F, I believe) or defective. Jumper across it and see if the fan starts.

Also check the fan fuse holder. It is located near the thermal switch. I had it fail where the wire going into it connects to one of the terminals. It is a displaced insulation connector, (also given the name by me of "Devil Connector) which in my book should never be used anywhere, much less where there is vibration. Jumper around the fuse with a fused wire and see if the fan starts.

There is another fuse off of the starter which powers everything but the starter. That has also failed, but it shut down the engine, since it also feeds the fuel solenoid. I hope this helps.

 

[J_J]

YES!
But this is really not intermitten, it is more of a mystery...at least to me.

There is no intermittent with the multimeter.

Is it possible that this new fan can only run in one direction, switch the leads and see if it will run. What is the voltage at the fan with the new fan hooked up ? I have seen fans with different part numbers, looked like the same fan, but one of them turns opposite the other. I always thought that if you reversed the leads on a DC motor, the fan direction would change. What if there is a diode in one lead to prevent it from reversing. A diode is used to prevent current from running in a certain direction. Just a thought.

 

[Clarke]

To reverse the new fan remove the clip that holds the blade remove blade turn it over and install clip. Reverse wiring. You may want to put a jumper across the fan thermal switch to check if it is open also check fuse and wiring and make sure you have a good electrical ground on the - side.

sg

 

[ldabe]

I guess I am not saying something right, because from some of the replys I thought I covered those things.

The "Thermal relay" is bypassed. (It's connectors are plugged directly into one another...so the relay has been bypassed)

The "fuse" right after the Thermal relay has been checked and is good.

The wires coming out of the hood have been cut away from the original fan, and the voltage at that point reads
12. 29 volts engine not running.
14.19 volts with engine running.

The new fan connected to the PT does not operate (remember the Thermal relay is bypassed, and the fuse is good)
but, when connected to the battery on my car
it does operate!

The old fan does the EXACT same thing as the new one (which shows the old fan was not bad).

I hope this clarifies the situation better.

This seemed like to me a easy situation to trouble shoot...
but I am completely confused as to why the fan(s) will operate connected to my car battery...
but not to the PT
when the voltage shows that it should.

 

[BobRip]

Fuse can be good, but fuse holder can still be bad. Is your voltage check with the fan connected?

 

[ponytug]

Dear Idabe,

You are doing a great trouble shooting job. Your measured voltages are all look good to me. 12.3V is a well charged lead-acid battery, and 14.19V is a reasonable alternator output.

So,...

The fans clearly work hooked up to a battery. To address the concerns about whether they work both ways is easy to test with your jumper cables, by switch + for -, but I am not sure that it helps you. You can sort out push/pull later.

I don't know how your fan is grounded, but make sure that check the ground part of the circuit. (Start at the battery, clean the ground terminal, check the cable, check the attachment to the tractor. Then check the fan ground, by unscrewing it and putting it back on again, checking the crimp for strength and integrity.)

I would make yourself a test lead, with a 15' of 12ga wire, and an inline fuse holder (with a 20A fuse in it, please!), with one end a spade connector, or soldered into a point, and the other a clip conector (I like to use an aligator clip, but YMMV). Then we'll take a walk through the circuits. You'll have the fan connected to one end of the wire, and then use the pointy end to test the circuit, starting at the battery and then moving piece by piece closer to the fan. Often connections can test good under no load, i.e. with a voltmeter, but not function well under load. The reason to connect your test lead to the fan, is that the wire you are waving in the breeze is unpowered, which is a lot safer than waving around a wire with 12.3V from your battery.

CAUTION: You will be working around a battery that has an enormous amount of energy; lethal amounts in fact. If you have insulating gloves, I recommend wearing them, and stay away from the battery as best you can. We want you to continue to contribute here!

Connect one end of your test lead to the fan's + wire, and leave it there for the rest of the testing.

1) Test the fan by connecting (touching) the spade connector to the + terminal on the battery.

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

2) Connect the spade connector to the input (hot(+)) side of the thermal relay.

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

3) Jumper the thermal switch. I like to use a stiff piece of solid wire, with just the ends stripped pushed into the crimps if there is room.

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

4) Test the downstream side of the jumpered thermal switch by touching the spade connector to the metal part of the crimp.

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

5) Check the hot side of the fuse holder, without the fuse in it.

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

6) Test the down stream side of the fuse holder with the fuse in it. (I would replace the fuse, if you haven't already. ATM type fuses can often have almost invisible cracks that keep them from working.)

Check to see if the fan turns, it should.​

7) The only thing left from here, is the wiring, but if it also runs the fan, you have an intermittant connection.

Most intermittant connections are failures at the crimps-
Especially, if you haven't been blowing fuses.
Generally, if I have to recrimp connections on rough duty equipment, I follow the belt and suspenders rule. I solder the wire, crimp it, and flow extra solder into the connector post crimping. Try not to let the solder wick too far back up the wire, or it will become stiff and brittle. Delcity sells some nice connectors that have heat melt adhesive in them that will flow over the wire insulation and form a secure, and water/dust tight connection.

I hope this helps,

Peter

I guess I am not saying something right, because from some of the replys I thought I covered those things.

The "Thermal relay" is bypassed. (It's connectors are plugged directly into one another...so the relay has been bypassed)

The "fuse" right after the Thermal relay has been checked and is good.

The wires coming out of the hood have been cut away from the original fan, and the voltage at that point reads
12. 29 volts engine not running.
14.19 volts with engine running.

The new fan connected to the PT does not operate (remember the Thermal relay is bypassed, and the fuse is good)
but, when connected to the battery on my car
it does operate!

The old fan does the EXACT same thing as the new one (which shows the old fan was not bad).

I hope this clarifies the situation better.

This seemed like to me a easy situation to trouble shoot...
but I am completely confused as to why the fan(s) will operate connected to my car battery...
but not to the PT
when the voltage shows that it should.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Electrical gremlins... Hmmmm...

First, voltage change with engine on and off is correct. Alternators put out around 14 volts or so...

There could (probably not) be an amperage issue. Meaning your feed wire has some sort of resistance in it that reduces the amps... That would be a huge longshot.

It could be a bunch of different things. First, Does the fan work on the PT battery directly connected (both ground and hot).

If so we go to B.... Is the ground you are using to test the 12volts at the end of the hot lead the same place you ground the fan and the same way?

Generally there are two reasons for this kind of failure. Bad ground, bad wire. Maybe you are shaking the wire when you connect the volt meter and allowing a connection (or you are getting a good connection with the meter and not with the fan wire). There could be a crack in the 12 volt source wire, or resistance has built up inside the wire. You said the thermal switch has been bypassed. Anytime you create a connection you create a weak link. Fresh, unspliced wire would alleviate those issues.

Finally ground point may be an issue. Lots of PT owners are adding a ground strap from the battery, to the engine, to the frame rail. PT seems to have left a frame rail strap off.

There is no cut and dried reason for electrical issues. You just have to start at the beginning (the battery or alternator) and work your way to the ignition switch, then back to the fan...

If you do replace wiring, use high quality AUTOMOTIVE wire. Automotive is usually more UV and chemical and heat tolerant than home...

Carl

 

[ponytug]

I agree with Carl's comments.

I usually get wire from Del City or West Marine- both sell marine wire, which has been silvered internally, making it more resistant to corrosion. They also use AWG wire gauge, which is 6-12% larger than SAE wire, for less heating, more delivered power. It goes on sale regularly at Del city.

For rewiring, here is a useful set of charts. Don't forget to include the length of the ground portion of the circuit.
Wiring Chart

All the best,

Peter

Electrical gremlins... Hmmmm...

....If you do replace wiring, use high quality AUTOMOTIVE wire. Automotive is usually more UV and chemical and heat tolerant than home...

Carl

 

[Clarke]

You can trouble shoot the circuit with your voltmeter. Hook the motor up and check the voltage at the two wires coming from the motor. With the motor load connected you most likely do not have 12 volts. Take the negative test lead and hook it to a GOOD ground like the Negative terminal on the battery. If you read 12 volts you have a grounding problem, if not leave that test lead on the - battery terminal using the + lead of your voltmeter start at the point in the fan circuit where the 12+ voltage starts and from there touch that lead to every connection up to the motor. The point where you do not read 12 volts is where the problem is. Bad connection or wire. Hope this helps.

sg

 

[ldabe]

Clarke,

I have not had time to trouble shoot the way you have suggested...but I plan to try within a few days, hopefully.

My wife's grandmother (more like her mother, she raised her from the time she was 13 to almost 20) died Thursday night. So things are pretty busy with that situation.

But I had to get some grass cut before it got way out of hand. (The high today was going to be 61 degrees, so I thought I would take a chance for 30 to 60 minutes even though the fan is not operating.)

Well about 20 min. into cutting I noticed the mower deck belt was wobbling strangely (I just changed the belt to a new one and left the covers off...good thing too.)

I pulled into the garage, and the right pulley was the culprit. I took off the pulley and there are "no bearings"!

Question? In order to fixed this, do you have to change out the whole "spindle pulley assembly"...

and

if so, what is the proceedure to take it apart?

I took off the blade, but that is it. I do not know how to get that shaft (spindle) out.

Question #2: Where can I get parts?

Do I need to go through Power Trac?

Thanks in advance for all the help (everybody)!

 

[SnowRidge]

Start taking things apart to find out how to work on the spindles. Best advice I can give.

I have not been able to find a source for spindles other than Power Trac. Check both the spindle and the spindle housing for wear. A good source for bearings is Skate Bearings out of FLorida. They have a web site and Google is your friend.

It is much cheaper to replace just the spindle rather than pay for the whole assembly if the housing is not bad.

You need a press to get the bearings on and off of the spindles/housings. I use a Harbor Freight 20 ton that I got on sale. It is way more than enough.

You can salvage a slightly worn spindle housing by installing the bearing using Locktite Bearing Mount. Might be a tad off on the name of the product.

Replace all of the bearings, but replace only those spindles that are actually bad. Do not over grease. Do not power grease. These are sealed bearings and too much grease can blow the seal. Grease does nothing but transfer heat away from bearings.

Check the bearings and spindles for wear after each mowing by grabbing each blade at both ends and trying to rock the blade. Rotate blade 90 degrees and check again.

That's all I can think of at the moment.

 

[J_J]

There is another way to break down the spindles. I have taken many spindles apart, mostly on cast iron spindles. Usually by the time you notice something is wrong, the bearing is on it's way out. This is what I do. Unscrew the nut on the spindle, remove the pulley. Use a large brass hammer or a hard piece of wood, and smack the top of the spindle real hard, and as many times as necessary. Most of the time, the bottom bearing will try and stay on the spindle. A shop press can remove them. The top bearing is removed by using a drift or large screw driver and hitting the rim of the bearing from the bottom of the spindle. As SnowRidge said, if the spindle is OK, clean everything, and replace the bearings. I used to have a complete spindle assembly built up for a quick exchange. My complete spindle assembly was around $75.00 . Sometimes you can seat the new bearings with a large socket, or tap the edge until it seats. Sometimes, you can pull the bearings in place by using the nut to tighten the spindle after you put things back together. If you are replacing sealed bearings, it's your choice whether you want to grease them. The bearings come in many different ways, open face, one side sealed, both sides sealed. Some spindles have no grease fittings. There are some people that grease sealed bearings by using a needle injector. This is taking economy to the extreme. Anyway, have fun.

 

[ldabe]

Just an update on this thread.

I have been working on a duplex I own, so I have not had time to do any work on the mower deck, until this evening.

I talked to keith at PT parts dept. and he said it would be $100 dollars for a new spindle assembly.

Seems my 2003 parts are not availible any more.

Also found out today that the middle spindle bearings are shot also.

Took apart the 3rd one, which is fine (must have been changed somewhere down the road).

The sleeve that goes around the spindle shaft and between the bearings has to be replaced on both of the bad ones, but the spindle and the housing seem to be ok.

I am going to shop around locally to see if I can find a couple sleeves (stainless steel, looks like) and some bearings.

If anyone has suggestions of places to look for these items, I am all ears.

Thanks guys.

 

[SnowRidge]

Just an update on this thread.

I have been working on a duplex I own, so I have not had time to do any work on the mower deck, until this evening.

I talked to keith at PT parts dept. and he said it would be $100 dollars for a new spindle assembly.

Seems my 2003 parts are not availible any more.

Also found out today that the middle spindle bearings are shot also.

Took apart the 3rd one, which is fine (must have been changed somewhere down the road).

The sleeve that goes around the spindle shaft and between the bearings has to be replaced on both of the bad ones, but the spindle and the housing seem to be ok.

I am going to shop around locally to see if I can find a couple sleeves (stainless steel, looks like) and some bearings.

If anyone has suggestions of places to look for these items, I am all ears.

Thanks guys.

The bearings should have numbers on them. Look in the Yellow Pages under bearings. A lot of auto parts stores have them, too. You can probably find them locally. If not, as I posted above, try Skate Bearings. That is where I got mine. They have a web site. They will also likely be cheaper.

I went through the same rigamarole about parts not being available and you have to buy the whole assembly with Terry, but I questioned it, and it turned out they did have the parts. They changed the design in 2003, and I got the newer model, which they do have the parts for. For some reason, they thought I had the older mower. I bought mine in July 2003, I think it was.

I was able to buy the spindles without the assembly, which are a lot cheaper.

 

[ldabe]

The bearings should have numbers on them. Look in the Yellow Pages under bearings. A lot of auto parts stores have them, too. You can probably find them locally. If not, as I posted above, try Skate Bearings. That is where I got mine. They have a web site. They will also likely be cheaper.

I went through the same rigamarole about parts not being available and you have to buy the whole assembly with Terry, but I questioned it, and it turned out they did have the parts. They changed the design in 2003, and I got the newer model, which they do have the parts for. For some reason, they thought I had the older mower. I bought mine in July 2003, I think it was.

I was able to buy the spindles without the assembly, which are a lot cheaper.

Yes, the bearings (at least the one that survived) has numbers on them, but it is a "patent number" not a part number (wonder who the dink was that made that dall).

Keith at PT, still says the two outer spindles (with the U-channel that holds the blade) would have to be completely replaced with the new assemblies (approx. $100 ea.).

I took them apart, and found locally the bearings ($9 ea.) and the spacers (2) for $2.58 ea., and a $5 charge to cut them to the proper size.

But now I have the middle spindle bearings to deal with, which is a whole different setup.

I removed the hydro motor, with the three point knucle that is attached to it.

I then had to back off a allen screw to remove the knucle on top of the pulley.

Then "two" allen screws had to be backed off on the Pulley to be able to tap the spindle down through the housing.

Once the spindle was out, I could see the bearings (I think they were bearings) were a mess! Really no bearings at all, just some twisted metal.

But on this spindle there is what I think is called a "keyway shaft"?

How does that come off the spindle shaft?

Do I drive it up out of the slot with a blunt chisle and hammer (to be able to get the twisted old bearing rings off and to put the new bearings on)?

Did this one have any kind of spacer? It didn't look like it did.

It was too late to call Keith and ask him after I finally remove the spindle.

Oh! Also I was trying to trouble shoot the fan again...and somehow touched one of those "disconnect wires" I talked about before, and there was a spark!
Well, now the PT will not start!

So, I am hoping I just blew a fuse somewhere, and hopefully did not fry anything.

Will try to find out tomorrow, too many "skeeters" to try and continue, especially with the frustration level rising more and more.

If anyone has comments, questions, or suggestions please "let r rip".

 

[woodlandfarms]

Just for my own interest, is it that the bearings never got lubed that they failed or somthing else...

 

[SnowRidge]

If anyone has comments, questions, or suggestions please "let r rip".

I feel for you. I was not happy when I opened my mower up and found sealed Chinese ball bearings in those spindle assemblies. PT says the old style spindle parts are not available, even to them, so you may have no choice but to bite the bullet and buy complete new assemblies.

 

[SnowRidge]

Just for my own interest, is it that the bearings never got lubed that they failed or somthing else...

The finish mowers, at least the 48" versions, give about 200 hours before the bearings give out. That is what I got, and I have seen a couple of other posts indicating that other owners got around the same number of hours out of theirs.

Although the spindle housings have grease fittings, they have sealed bearings. PT exhorts owners to grease their bearings, but doesn't explain how or why you grease a sealed bearing. The only explanation I have found that makes any sense is the grease helps to transfer heat away from the bearing. That particular explanation came from someone on http://www.lawnsite.com/, IIRC, and it was a generalization, not a PT specific opinion.

When the mowers come new from the factory, their is little if any grease in the spindle housings. This is evidenced by the fact that new owners seem to be able to pump grease into the housing "forever" without seeing any evidence of old grease coming out.

When the bearing fails, spindle damage follows immediately. If not caught in short order, the spindle housing will be damaged as well. Since I replaced one spindle and all the bearings, I now check the bearings after each mowing by grasping each blade and trying to rock it back and forth, then rotating it 90 degrees and checking again. I also grease only by hand and limit the number of grease gun pumps to three maximum. I stop if I feel any resistance, which would indicate the cavity is full. All to avoid blowing any bearing seals.

Edit: Lawnsite had another explanation for why spindle assemblies with sealed bearings have grease fittings. It was because professional lawn care people won't buy a mower that doesn't have grease fittings, even if it has sealed bearings. There was also some talk that the mower manufacturers had moved from the more expensive tapered roller bearings to sealed ball bearings, and were loathe to admit it, so they left the grease fittings in place and didn't say anything about the switch.

I understand Scag still uses tapered roller bearings. I wish Power Trac did.