Battery based vehicles of today and tomorrow pt 2

[DK35vince]

Let me make sure I understand.

You are saving $50/month with EV vs ICE. Cost of the charger is about $1000. So 20 months to breakeven on the charger. Now factor in the cost of the EV vs an ICE...say $4000 more? So, another 80 months to breakeven on the car. 100 months to breakeven - over 8 years, Next "hit"... after 8 years the value of your EV will 1/2 of the value of an ICE.

If you were spending $80/mo on gas, and your ICE got 30 mpg you are driving about 8000 mile/year on both cars combined. That is a tad less than most of us drive. It is too bad you cannot use an electric golf cart for some of your errands and save even more money. But I realize a golf cart is not practical in MN so the Bolt was good choice...LOL.

These are the kinds of testimonials that make me question gung-ho EVers. What works for you is perfect for you. It will not work for everyone. Your needs are less than 5k miles a year per vehicle.

Don't forget the added insurance cost for EV

https://www.caranddriver.com/car-insurance/a35600058/insure-electric-car/

Car Insurance for Electric Cars – Policygenius

Car insurance for electric vehicles is more expensive than coverage for a gas-powered model, but you can still find cheap rates by comparing quotes and searching for discounts.

www.policygenius.com

Is electric car insurance cheaper?

If you're thinking of buying an EV, you may have many questions about the cost - including EV car insurance. Find out if electric car insurance is cheaper.

www.hertz.com

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Theoretically a sufficiently well to do person could buy a decent sized acreage , outright purchase a large off grid system with storage and an EV or more and never even hook up to the grid assuming they got the solar storage inverters set up with a genny first,
then keep the generator for back up

By Large, I Do mean LARGE Solar, and storage, inverters

Of course being an Electronics Tech you already know that.

Yes, however, you addressed one of my anti-EV points. A sufficiently well to do person would never do that since that's not how they became sufficiently well to do in the first place! Spending money to save money is sophistry, the exception being business for profit tax write off.
The EV discussion boils down to mode of transportation which is all encompassing.
Two vehicles serve an identical purpose, one costs $30K new the other $60K new. If the less expensive costs double price per mile are you really saving money, is it break-even or a loss over time?
The same with a generator, solar panels, etc.
FSD, charging, etc. is another discussion just like needs, wants and economics.

 

[Fuddyduddy1952]

Re: Driving on sunshine
Our home array is 20x375 watt panels, 4 years 3 months since online.
Grid-tied inverter, self-installed (retired electrician). 7.5kw.
This has generated about 9 mega-watt-hours per year, 750 kwh per month, 25 kwh per day. In the frozen tundra of central Minnesota.
After going online we had no electric bill (after subtracting billed months from credit months) for years.
House is 2600 sq feet, 200 Amp service.
As the "break-even" point approached we decided to add a plug-in-hybrid to replace one of our cars. With the intent of taking care of any 'overproduction' of our array.
Still came out ahead on electric bill net.
Last year we added an electric Chevy Bolt to replace our last 'all gas' car.
And we now have an electric outlay again.
I can say with certainty that $30 electric bill is cheaper than $80 gas bill a month. Whether we are well-to-do is open to furious debate at our house. (She maintains that I am the only thing getting cheaper nowadays)
To "drive on sunshine" I would have to be able use the standing charge of an EV battery to do vehicle-to-grid (V2G) and time of use billing to shift production. These type of cars and connections are being implemented in other parts of the world, I can only wait.
With a PHEV we are not limited for range, and with an EV we are way ahead on gas.
Kinda, sorta driving on sunshine.

regards,

R

Cost. That's the important word omitted in the discussion. Cost. That has to be factored in, initial plus maintenance costs.
Four years, four months since installation.
For example the S&P 500 last 5 year return average was 14.68%. You could use other indexes, just a simple example.
That means (again...example) say the system cost $30,000. Reinvesting cap gains & dividends today that would be $54,287.89.

Factor in the $24,287.89 or $467.07/month into your power savings.

 

[Grumpycat]

Theoretically a sufficiently well to do person could buy a decent sized acreage , outright purchase a large off grid system with storage and an EV or more and never even hook up to the grid assuming they got the solar storage inverters set up with a genny first,
then keep the generator for back up

By Large, I Do mean LARGE Solar, and storage, inverters

Of course being an Electronics Tech you already know that.

Not very large at all. 10kW is what my Model S would take on L2, 11.5kW is what the newer models will take.

Solar City quoted a 10kW system, installed, pre-tax credits, $26,000.

In most of the country one averages an effective 4 hours per day. No matter sunlight for 12 hours it is dim in the morning and late afternoon, but the panels produce the same as 4 hours full illumination then 20 dark. So a 10kW system will yield 40kWh/day.

40kWh is a pretty good charge. Not a full charge but more than most use in a day.

The 10kW system was only 30 PV panels. Not really close to "decent sized acreage" but easy roof mount.

Powerwalls should be added to average and store the power produced so as not to have to have the EV connected full time.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

This is a new to me channel and I didn't know that a movie about Elon Musk and SpaceX was being planned.

 

[Jchonline]

Over and over again:

Let the renters find an apartment with charging facilities if they want to drive an EV.

Else they have no justification to complain.

But that doesnt solve the issue with carbon emissions for 25% of NY…thats still a problem Right?

 

[CloverKnollFarms]

Also, opportunity cost. Money spent today, has an opportunity cost over 10 years. Actually, it doubles.
Break even on $10k spent, requires $20k over 10 years... Not $10k

 

[Jchonline]

Not very large at all. 10kW is what my Model S would take on L2, 11.5kW is what the newer models will take.

Solar City quoted a 10kW system, installed, pre-tax credits, $26,000.

In most of the country one averages an effective 4 hours per day. No matter sunlight for 12 hours it is dim in the morning and late afternoon, but the panels produce the same as 4 hours full illumination then 20 dark. So a 10kW system will yield 40kWh/day.

40kWh is a pretty good charge. Not a full charge but more than most use in a day.

The 10kW system was only 30 PV panels. Not really close to "decent sized acreage" but easy roof mount.

Powerwalls should be added to average and store the power produced so as not to have to have the EV connected full time.

I have a 12KW off grid system that powers my Shop. Ground mount set at 35 deg angle (maximized for Winter where I am ) and facing due South. It’s the best setup I can get for my area other than a ground mount tracking system (which doubles the cost).

Below is Madison, AL with a 10 kw system mounted at the perfect 31 deg angle, static mount on say a house with all panels pointed due South. As you can see the max you will get is about 6 kw on average. Nowhere close to 10. If you have trees anywhere that shade at any part of the day, it’s closer to zero unless you have arrays in series and specific wiring to allow each series to provide power separately from the others. If you are cloudy, rainy, snowy, the numbers drop closer to zero.

When you look at the link, bottom right of page gives your hourly PV power broken down by Month…thats what I am referencing. Click on the View Details button to expand it.

Global Solar Atlas

The Global Solar Atlas provides a summary of solar power potential and solar resources globally. It is provided by the World Bank Group as a free service to governments, developers and the general public, and allows users to quickly obtain data and carry out a simple electricity output...

globalsolaratlas.info

You design a solar system for the Winter, not for the Summer. So you are at 31 kW max power input in the Winter. If you need 40 kWh you will want to up that system 25%.

You arent going to be charging those power walls and the EV at the same time…and you have to unplug your EV at 2pm in the Winter. What time do you get home from work again?


Here is a 20 kw system same setup as above.

Global Solar Atlas

The Global Solar Atlas provides a summary of solar power potential and solar resources globally. It is provided by the World Bank Group as a free service to governments, developers and the general public, and allows users to quickly obtain data and carry out a simple electricity output...

globalsolaratlas.info

Here is a 16 kw system same setup as above. This will get you 50 kw in the Winter. Might even be able to go down to 14 If 40 kw is your sweet spot.

Global Solar Atlas

The Global Solar Atlas provides a summary of solar power potential and solar resources globally. It is provided by the World Bank Group as a free service to governments, developers and the general public, and allows users to quickly obtain data and carry out a simple electricity output...

globalsolaratlas.info

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Yes, however, you addressed one of my anti-EV points. A sufficiently well to do person would never do that since that's not how they became sufficiently well to do in the first place! Spending money to save money is sophistry, the exception being business for profit tax write off.
The EV discussion boils down to mode of transportation which is all encompassing.
Two vehicles serve an identical purpose, one costs $30K new the other $60K new. If the less expensive costs double price per mile are you really saving money, is it break-even or a loss over time?
The same with a generator, solar panels, etc.
FSD, charging, etc. is another discussion just like needs, wants and economics.

@Fuddyduddy1952 I get your fear of the future forces you to try to get others to live in the past with you.

It wasn't untill 2019 that I realized that ICE passenger cars were becoming the rolling dead. A few weeks later I bought the Leaf with the dying battery so the kids then 22 could be around a new energy vehicle. Last year we got the Tesla with FSD because our son insisted. Three days ago FSD in the dark tapped the brake due to a deer that jumped in front of the car. FSD gave her enough time to recover from slipping and then to get out of my lane.

Try to be open minded on behalf those that need cleaner air to breathe.

 

[MarkF48]

A few posts back there was mention of EV insurance. This reminded me that back in December I had a questionnaire to fill out for my homeowners insurance renewal. On the form was checkbox along the lines, 'Do you own an EV and will it be garaged in the home you are insuring or an attached garage?' Everything I own is ICE so it was left unchecked.
Has anyone else come across this or similar on your homeowners insurance?