Ballast Ballast Location Effect on Tractor

[2fast916]

I rarely keep a heavy load on the 3-pt hitch but, if I do, I usually block it up.

 

[jimmysisson]

I'd chain it to where the top link attaches, might need a custom bracket or pin. Less strain that way than when the link helps support the weight. That counterweight bouncing along back there can put more pressure on the seals than they like. YMMV.
Jim

 

[RedNeckRacin]

Where/how are you chaining? I would argue that chaining puts odd/unintended loads on parts/pieces that wasn't intended.
The hydraulics / seals / etc. doesn't care. They don't get tired from holding something. Set it down when parked for safety though.

I'm going to disagree. If you have almost 0 traction on ice and you add chains, how is that different from being in soil with good traction in 4wd pulling a heavy draft implement. I would think you have more traction in the soil because that's what the machine was designed to do. The chains on the machine would also keep you from sliding into someplace you don't want your machine to be. Also, the tires/axles/drivetrain are designed to carry the machine and transfer power to the ground, how is that unintended usage?

 

[RaydaKub]

I'm going to disagree. If you have almost 0 traction on ice and you add chains, how is that different from being in soil with good traction in 4wd pulling a heavy draft implement.

I believe the statement is being made about chaining up the 3ph so it can't drop any further, not about tire chains. So is there an appropriate place that a chain can be used that will support the weight?

 

[RedNeckRacin]

I believe the statement is being made about chaining up the 3ph so it can't drop any further, not about tire chains. So is there an appropriate place that a chain can be used that will support the weight?

Well, I feel like a horse's arse!

 

[David Devuono]

I think of a 3PTH weight box as a tool to make it easier on the front end when doing loader work. Its a counter weight and does nothing to help with steering if you are pushing a plow. Wheel loading and Wheel weights on the other hand help with traction and do not take away from steering. If you have already loaded your tires I would leave the weight box off. While it will add some traction, you will loose some steering. My tractor constantly steers in the direction opposite the the blade angle but my 3pth counter weight is a V-blade so I need it on there and so may have to take extra runs at the snow to keep things on on track.

 

[GManBart]

If your in the winter, your going to run into ice. No amount of weight on r-1's is going to overcome that. The coefficient of friction dictates (Static or dynamic, your choice.). I'm running a 11klb + machine in 4wd with R-1s that is almost helpless without chains on. I can probably climb the side of a tree with all 4 tires chained now though.

So now you're going to change the scenario, and change your statement....okay, the original statement still didn't make sense.

You said weight doesn't matter...it does. More weight with chains will be better than less weight with chains. More weight without chains will be better than less weight without chains.

Making a comparison limited to ice only, and chains versus without isn't what the OP was asking about.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

So now you're going to change the scenario, and change your statement....okay, the original statement still didn't make sense.

You said weight doesn't matter...it does. More weight with chains will be better than less weight with chains. More weight without chains will be better than less weight without chains.

Making a comparison limited to ice only, and chains versus without isn't what the OP was asking about.

I made no change to my statement(s). WE are talking about traction in the winter are we not? R-1's are just about helpless in icy or previous plowed/hard run in roads. You can't force a tire to get traction if it can't grip the surface or penetrate the surface. The R-1's have no sipes and can't penetrate so they don't get good traction on a hard surface. If you are talking deep snow, then yes, r-1's are in their element because the lugs have something to get a hold of. `If you are staying within the limits of the load ratings of the machine, an extra thousand lbs of weight isn't going to make a noticeable difference in the traction. You have made no appreciable change to the coefficient of friction between the tires and the ice/road. I don't drive in deep snow when I'm plowing, I drive in the cleared portion of the road right behind the plow I'm pushing.

I think I have a much heavier tractor than you and 4wd so I can absolutely speak to the lack of effect that weight has on such a machine. (I also have a smaller machine with r-4's that is equally helpless on ice or hardpack) That is precisely why I have added front and rear chains, wheel weights, loaded tires, and a 1700lb counter weight. (11Klbs+ total) Now, I see your eyes lighting up reading this so I will explain. The counter-weight is for the loader. I can easily lift the rear end off the ground with the loaded tires and wheel weights. That's why I made it. The wheel weights and loaded tires are for farm work in the summer time. These JD utilities are far to light from the factory to keep heavy implements from pushing them around. I can guarantee that if I took my chains off, I would not be able to push my snowplow up the hill out of my driveway, regardless of the 3klbs that I have added to the machine. I will agree that the weight improves the traction of the CHAINS a lot. It really forces them into the ice and I have no problems navigating my hillsides anymore.


I agree that my replies to your comments were not in regards to the op's comments/question. I have directed my comments at him and you respectively.

 

[GManBart]

I made no change to my statement(s). WE are talking about traction in the winter are we not? R-1's are just about helpless in icy or previous plowed/hard run in roads. You can't force a tire to get traction if it can't grip the surface or penetrate the surface. The R-1's have no sipes and can't penetrate so they don't get good traction on a hard surface. If you are talking deep snow, then yes, r-1's are in their element because the lugs have something to get a hold of. `If you are staying within the limits of the load ratings of the machine, an extra thousand lbs of weight isn't going to make a noticeable difference in the traction. You have made no appreciable change to the coefficient of friction between the tires and the ice/road. I don't drive in deep snow when I'm plowing, I drive in the cleared portion of the road right behind the plow I'm pushing.

I think I have a much heavier tractor than you and 4wd so I can absolutely speak to the lack of effect that weight has on such a machine. (I also have a smaller machine with r-4's that is equally helpless on ice or hardpack) That is precisely why I have added front and rear chains, wheel weights, loaded tires, and a 1700lb counter weight. (11Klbs+ total) Now, I see your eyes lighting up reading this so I will explain. The counter-weight is for the loader. I can easily lift the rear end off the ground with the loaded tires and wheel weights. That's why I made it. The wheel weights and loaded tires are for farm work in the summer time. These JD utilities are far to light from the factory to keep heavy implements from pushing them around. I can guarantee that if I took my chains off, I would not be able to push my snowplow up the hill out of my driveway, regardless of the 3klbs that I have added to the machine. I will agree that the weight improves the traction of the CHAINS a lot. It really forces them into the ice and I have no problems navigating my hillsides anymore.


I agree that my replies to your comments were not in regards to the op's comments/question. I have directed my comments at him and you respectively.

No, you're changing the discussion. You told the OP that weight wouldn't matter without chains (paraphrasing). I said that wasn't always the case and described a situation where adding 1,400lbs made all the difference in the world. Now you're making it about tire types, chains versus no chains, etc. I only mentioned the R-1 tires on my Massey as a detail to describe the situation accurately for the OP.

FYI, I've operated heavier machines (with R4s) than your tractor in snow....for example, my backhoe weighs 18K, but I've run a few others here and there over the years.

Nobody would suggest that chains don't work better than bare tires in snow/ice, but that isn't what the thread is about. Adding weight will help with traction either way (with or without chains). Whether it's enough to get by without chains will depend on the exact conditions at the time. I have chains for my Massey, but didn't need them when I pulled my neighbor and the big tree out of the woods...1,400lbs of counterweight was more than enough.

 

[RaydaKub]

I think you're both right and both wrong. It all depends on the conditions. There are cases where weight will help, there are cases where weight won't make a lick of difference. Chains will always help, but are much less effective if there isn't enough weight to get them to bite, but I would guess that is much less often the case.

But neither of those issues is what the OP had asked about in the first place. He asked about the ballast box and how the effect would change whether it was up or down.

 

[GManBart]

I think you're both right and both wrong. It all depends on the conditions. There are cases where weight will help, there are cases where weight won't make a lick of difference. Chains will always help, but are much less effective if there isn't enough weight to get them to bite, but I would guess that is much less often the case.

But neither of those issues is what the OP had asked about in the first place. He asked about the ballast box and how the effect would change whether it was up or down.

I'm not sure why you said I'm both right and wrong when you just made the exact points I've been making. Weight alone will sometimes be enough and chains always help...while weight plus chains would be even better. I've never said that weight alone always helped, just that sometimes it's enough.

I've been saying all along that the OP asked a different question, but he did bring up the topic of adding weight (to the front).

 

[RaydaKub]

I've been saying all along that the OP asked a different question, but he did bring up the topic of adding weight (to the front).

Sorry, missed that one.

 

[RedNeckRacin]

I'm not sure why you said I'm both right and wrong when you just made the exact points I've been making. Weight alone will sometimes be enough and chains always help...while weight plus chains would be even better. I've never said that weight alone always helped, just that sometimes it's enough.

I've been saying all along that the OP asked a different question, but he did bring up the topic of adding weight (to the front).

I agree with that!
I assumed from your example of pulling the other machine out that more weight was the answer to traction problems.

 

[Garandman]

I wanted to get a ballast box for my L3200 because when I was carrying a full load of logs or rocks the rear wheels would come up on bumps (they're filled).

After looking at many options I purchased a "Compact Tractor Ballast Box" from DR Power and couldn't be more pleased. Loaded it with sand, then put a plastic bag on top so I had room for tool carrying. It also has three rings on the side for long-handle tools like shovels or axes, and a tab for towing: I use it to tow the splitter.

Yesterday I had to take some big Hemlock log sections out of the back yard, which is snowy and downhill, with plenty of bumps. It kept the rears firmly on the ground. It was nice having the chainsaw, gas can etc with me as well.

 

[jimmysisson]

Garandman, I like the box - looks very useful. I'd be inclined to load it with washed stone, which won't hold water. Maybe your plastic keeps the sand dry? Sand can freeze pretty good when wet.
Jim

 

[Garandman]

I planned to use rocks. Granite is 165 lbs cu ft compared ttto 100-110 for sand. We have stone walls for the taking. I could use different sizes to fill in the gaps.

....But by the time I got it the stone walls were all frozen together so I used sand from a pile I had.

 

[PILOON]

Well I had an experience that possibly resolves the debate.
My little Mitsu has FEL plow and rear blower, 2 link ice chains on loaded rears and usually is un stoppable.

I had to remove the blower in order to repair the 3-point pivot shaft and to do so needed to drive to a friend's as he had a heated garage.
Well to climb hills that I usually attack in 3 high (2wd)now needed to be driven in 3 low with diff lock engaged and 4wd, and down hill was a hair rising ride.
That 300 lb(?) blower hanging out 3 ft on the back sure makes a major difference.
As chains go I think what I have is about the most aggressive available.
YES, properly located weight sure counts.

 

[David Devuono]

Well I had an experience that possibly resolves the debate.
My little Mitsu has FEL plow and rear blower, 2 link ice chains on loaded rears and usually is un stoppable.

I had to remove the blower in order to repair the 3-point pivot shaft and to do so needed to drive to a friend's as he had a heated garage.
Well to climb hills that I usually attack in 3 high (2wd)now needed to be driven in 3 low with diff lock engaged and 4wd, and down hill was a hair rising ride.
That 300 lb(?) blower hanging out 3 ft on the back sure makes a major difference.
As chains go I think what I have is about the most aggressive available.
YES, properly located weight sure counts.

Like some have mentioned, every situation is different and we are all correct. Problem is, you where not pushing snow with a blade, therefore you were not trying to steer while pushing snow and experiencing the frustration of the snow directing your tractor towards the ditch (blade angled). We all would would agree that traction is better with weight but where that weight is added will impact plowing snow. I might just have to shoot a video of my chained up B4200 at 1200 lbs pulling my B3200 at 2400 lbs around the yard. Couple of years ago the driveway was particularily icy under 12 inches of snow. Had a friend on my B3200 pushing my B4200 which has a blower (and chains) Turns out the B3200 often separated even though it was just pushing (Nothing when separated) through a cleared path and the Little B4200 was pushing a foot of snow. Chains are simply the most amazing addition to a tractor, that I leave them on yearround on my B4200 turfs and MF135 R1's. I only take them off the B3200 because there is little clearance for chains (fender damage)