bad times driving a well

[HiTechTed]

I'm driving a shallow well out in our garden area. I got the pipe and supplies from Menards and so far, I have trashed 3 of the pipes. The drive cap doesn't thread all the way down onto the pipe; it goes about half way (and that's using pipe wrenches to tighten it on). The drive cap appears to be slightly tapered on the inside. When I hit the drive cap, eventually the threads collapse in on themselves. The first time it happened, I blamed myself for not threading it on all the way...then I realized it wouldn't thread on all the way no matter what I did.

I have the point driven in far enough that I can't pull it out, but I was able to unscrew the pipe from the coupling (three different times) and get them out, and screw a new one in. I'd probably trash it if I tried pulling it out with the tractor.

I'm not even striking the drive cap that hard, I'm using an 8lb sledge and after mangling the first pipe I have been babying it. I'm driving it in and I'm not hitting any rocks, but the threads aren't holding out long enough for me to keep going deeper.

Has anybody experienced this before? Shouldn't the drive cap thread all the way onto the pipe? I have to think the threads are the weakest part of the pipe and the pipe fails right below where the drive cap stops. I think the pipe and the drive cap are both junk, I'm not sure if the pipe is schedule 80 or not but it has "well drive pipe" printed on the sides of each one. That doesn't mean much to me when it fails like it has been, though.

I'll take whatever advice anybody wants to share.

 

[crash325]

Try a snug fitting cap that slips on. Put a hard wood block in it. Baby hits don't really work. Hit as hard as you can with a real heavy hammer. If you have ever seen a good carpenter drive nails, that is how it is done. 1 Starting blow and 2 more to sink it.

 

[ayelvington]

It appears that the only source of drive caps forgot how to make them. I used to work at TSC, and all of the drive caps we had on the shelf were defective as you described.

I eventually found a good cap on a dusty shelf somewhere and have closely guarded it.

The idea of a hardwood block sounds like it might work.

The only hit that I can offer is that my good cap was blue, and all of the defective caps were red. I suspect that they changed Chinese vendors and quality hit the floor.

I'm two feet into a shale shelf in my field, so I'm really appreciating that good cap!

 

[HiTechTed]

It appears that the only source of drive caps forgot how to make them. I used to work at TSC, and all of the drive caps we had on the shelf were defective as you described.

I eventually found a good cap on a dusty shelf somewhere and have closely guarded it.

The idea of a hardwood block sounds like it might work.

The only hit that I can offer is that my good cap was blue, and all of the defective caps were red. I suspect that they changed Chinese vendors and quality hit the floor.

I'm two feet into a shale shelf in my field, so I'm really appreciating that good cap!

Lo and behold, the cap I have is red and has "China" embossed in the edge. Well, they all say "china" on them now so that's to be expected I guess.

And I know you're right crash, what I'm doing right now will require years to drive 20 feet of pipe in. Today was a perfect day for doing the job...sunny but a nice cool breeze. I'm not giving up by any means but I'm a bit put off by this crap. I can't stand the fact that I have to guess at what the quality of the things I buy is going to be anymore. It's a total crap shoot...if something works it's considered a fluke and if something fails I'm not even surprised anymore. That's more frustrating than anything to me.

I might go take the pipe back and find sched 80, then figure out the cap situation. I need more pipe now anyway! Maybe my local plumbing supplier will have a better cap or something similar to what crash recommends.

 

[zzvyb6]

You don't/won't drive/pound a well point. You 'push' it. A massive blow with a big hammer has such little contact time that it's fracturing the target is what you should expect. Its straight physics. Maybe in sand or gravel, but not 'earth'.

Instead, you want to have a VERY large weight suspendend just a foot or two above the driveline and release it. Because its so big and the distance is so short, the terminal velocity will be low (minimizing fracture) but the momentum will be large, hence the movement of the point will also be finite and the ground friction will be overcome.

For example fence post pounders don't use an impact technique. They just use a BIG weight suspended on a rail.

People I deal with are always trying to put a windmill up around a 'driven' well. The best luck I have is putting the tower up at a location likely to have water and then using the tower as a weight launcher. Best driver? A wooden railroad tie: Strong, well damped, HEAVY, flat end and fits under the tower and can be removed when the job is done.

 

[ayelvington]

I'm using a 150 lb "spud" to drive my well point. I've been using 36" drops so far, but I'll try your 24" drops for a while to see if they make a difference. I'm in a tough layer right now, and it takes about 20 taps to go an inch.

I like the railroad tie idea...

You don't/won't drive/pound a well point. You 'push' it. A massive blow with a big hammer has such little contact time that it's fracturing the target is what you should expect. Its straight physics. Maybe in sand or gravel, but not 'earth'.

Instead, you want to have a VERY large weight suspendend just a foot or two above the driveline and release it. Because its so big and the distance is so short, the terminal velocity will be low (minimizing fracture) but the momentum will be large, hence the movement of the point will also be finite and the ground friction will be overcome.

For example fence post pounders don't use an impact technique. They just use a BIG weight suspended on a rail.

People I deal with are always trying to put a windmill up around a 'driven' well. The best luck I have is putting the tower up at a location likely to have water and then using the tower as a weight launcher. Best driver? A wooden railroad tie: Strong, well damped, HEAVY, flat end and fits under the tower and can be removed when the job is done.

 

[bp fick]

You've gotten pretty good guidance. I drove a well last week. Driving caps are alright, but they aren't necessary. You can just drive with the drive couplings if you use a different tool than a sledge.

My neighbor quickly welded up our driver. It is a 65 pound gear he picked up in the oil fields as scrap and tacked it to an axle shaft. Worked like an absolute charm and there is no damage to the drive coupling. Just for extra protection, I slipped a large washer with a 1 1/4" center hole over the axle before slipping the axle into the well pipe. Whatever nicking or distorting was absorbed by the washer and the drive coupling remained brand new looking.

I did have to re-tightening the drive coupling every dozen whacks. They do shock themselves loose a bit and loose mean quick damage. No problems.

Here is my thread from last week. Photos, etc.
http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/209141-driving-new-well.html

 

[trailbuilder]

When I drove our point I was told to tighten the pipes every few blows to make sure nothing came loose. I used a standard fence pole driver with a 20 pound weight welded to the top for the extra weight. I justed lifted the driver and let it fall.
Yes it did work....but I am not sure what country the drive cap was from. It was greyish silver. (from the grey market?)

 

[HiTechTed]

I have a "manual" fence post driver but I didn't use it because the drive cap wouldn't fit inside it...

zz, I am driving in sandy soil and I haven't been hitting it as hard as I can. I understand what you're saying but there's something else going on here!

I have a telephone pole out back, maybe I can figure out how to use it to do this job? Either way I still need to replace some pipes and a coupling...

 

[bp fick]

I have a "manual" fence post driver but I didn't use it because the drive cap wouldn't fit inside it...

zz, I am driving in sandy soil and I haven't been hitting it as hard as I can. I understand what you're saying but there's something else going on here!

I have a telephone pole out back, maybe I can figure out how to use it to do this job? Either way I still need to replace some pipes and a coupling...

At our local hardware, the guy will re-cut the threads for a buck. You'll likely be able to salvage those pipe pieces.

 

[HiTechTed]

At our local hardware, the guy will re-cut the threads for a buck. You'll likely be able to salvage those pipe pieces.

That's not a bad idea, if it's cheaper than buying more pipes. I'm not sure if our local place can do it or not but I will at least ask.

By the way, thanks everybody for the tips and ideas. I have limited "large heavy objects" at my disposal but I'm brainstorming this morning to see what I can come up with...

 

[Brad_Blazer]

Amazon.com: well drive cap - Tools & Home Improvement

It looks like there are several brands of caps out there.

 

[HiTechTed]

Amazon.com: well drive cap - Tools & Home Improvement

It looks like there are several brands of caps out there.

Yes, and it looks like I picked a bad one! I'm going to use BP's idea of just using the coupling and a washer on top of that. The couplings I have thread all the way down onto the pipe and I feel a lot better about that. I'm off to the hardware store, thanks guys for your help and I'll report back later, success or not.

 

[foggy1111]

I bought my pipe and couplings at Mills Fleet Farm.....but I have read where others say to buy this stuff from USA sources. Mine worked out.

I used a short (6") peice of "sacrificial pipe" to drive on. This short peice became destroyed by the time my well was driven. As said....keep tightening the couplings with a pair of large pipe wrenches.

To me.....the most important peice of gear when driving a well is an ELECTRIC JACK HAMMER. :thumbsup:

 

[HiTechTed]

Ok guys, it's been a long day and thankfully it has ended on a much better note than it started on! I took my mangled pipes to a local plumbing shop and they put some new threads on for me which saved me about $40. I combined zz and bp's advice and came up with a fairly good solution. I took my T-post driver and welded an 8lb chunk of angle on the side of it, then welded a 3/4 x 4" bolt on the end so I could put another 20lb of cast iron weights on it so the device now weighs roughly 50lbs. I would add more if a machine was doing the lifting instead of me!

I decided to just use the couplings instead of trying to find another drive cap. After a few minutes worth of work, I stop and re-tighten the pipes and couplings. I drove in 5' of pipe with no problems in about an hour and it didn't damage the couplings or the pipe.

This method is pretty much what zz and others described except mine is lighter in weight and I have to "run" it manually (which is one good workout if you are in to that kind of thing). Even so, when I raise and release my driver, it strikes the pipe squarely and it has a much more positive feel to it. I lift it about the length of the driver and then let it fall, probably 18" or 2 feet at the most.

I'll post a picture of my contraption tomorrow but I just wanted to share the positive results of the advice I was given here earlier today.

 

[HiTechTed]

I bought my pipe and couplings at Mills Fleet Farm.....but I have read where others say to buy this stuff from USA sources. Mine worked out.

I used a short (6") peice of "sacrificial pipe" to drive on. This short peice became destroyed by the time my well was driven. As said....keep tightening the couplings with a pair of large pipe wrenches.

To me.....the most important peice of gear when driving a well is an ELECTRIC JACK HAMMER. :thumbsup:

Foggy, I remembered seeing one of your posts on this subject. I asked my local tool rental to see if they had a bit for their jackhammer for driving pipes and they looked at me like I was insane. After I explained it they understood and said it makes sense, but that they had never seen what I was describing.

 

[MNBobcat]

You can rent an electric jackhammer for about $45. I think that would be well worth it. They can set you up with the fittings for driving the pipe.

 

[HiTechTed]

You can rent an electric jackhammer for about $45. I think that would be well worth it. They can set you up with the fittings for driving the pipe.

I can rent the jackhammer but they don't have the fittings for driving a pipe...like I said, they had never heard of it before and didn't have the fitting...

I could make one I suppose.

 

[HiTechTed]

I hit water at about 13 feet and drove it in another 5 feet. Hooked up my pitcher pump, and after dumping some water into the top of the pump to get the seals working, got water. After a few minutes it was running clear!

I've built buildings and done all sorts of cool things but this ranks as one of my favorite projects. It will be worth the severe cramps I'm probably going to get in my arms later this evening!

Now I have to trench in 300' of wire for power...

 

[zzvyb6]

Or else you could use one of these... We just put this up tonight under the light of the pending full moon (well a few hours before darkness).

Now where's that pesky railroad tie....