B200 Hydrostatic Issues - sluggish/no movement forward or back when warm.

[smythro]

Thanks I would really appreciate any help I can get. The problem I'm troubleshooting is a drive problem. It seems to work ok until it warms up. Eventually it completely loses almost all drive power. I took some temp readings and the parker drive motor was about 10 degrees warmer than the main pump. I was able to get the drive motor out yesterday, no clips I just used some penetrating oil over night. I do sstill have the feeling that the main pump is the problem. I would rrally like to know what you did to fix it. The more info the better. You mentioned testing by capping the outputs to see if it stalls. If it stalls then the pump is working correctly right? Thanks again, anybody with a boboat bl or an earth force will appreciate this thread. I also a have mover problems in forward and reverse.

I am happy to help. What problem are you trying to solve?

If it is forward movement, then I suspect it is the hydrostatic pump as this was my issue and since my post I have been contacted by a few people with the same issue. Seems these B200 the pumps are too small and wear out in less than 1000 hours. I can expound on this if you think this may be the issue. I fixed mine and did some retro-fitting to help prevent this in the future. Simple check if the pump is working is to cap the output ports and the tractor should stall out if you actuate the forward/reverse direction.

If you are trying to get the parker drive motor out, I cannot help, as I was never able to get mine out. It turned out this was not the problem anyway, so I left it alone. It would seem there is a nut or clip or similar on the shaft keeping it in there, but short of breaking down the transfer case, I am not sure how one would get to such a clip. All the diagrams and advice I have gotten says there is no clip and it should just come out, but I could not get it out, ever! I was able to get the drive motor to move in the housing by removing all the bolts, but could never get it out or even loose. My point is that it is not bound or rusted in on the housing, there is something else holding it in there.


"Hi Greg, I was reading your thread an wondering if you were able to straighten it out. I'm battling the same thing right now. I'm at the point where I'm trying to pull the Parker drive motor and can't seem to get it all the way you. It seems there might be a nut on the end of the shaft. So just scouring the internet for information. Thanks"

 

[gjb012]

Thanks I would really appreciate any help I can get. The problem I'm troubleshooting is a drive problem. It seems to work ok until it warms up. Eventually it completely loses almost all drive power. I took some temp readings and the parker drive motor was about 10 degrees warmer than the main pump. I was able to get the drive motor out yesterday, no clips I just used some penetrating oil over night. I do sstill have the feeling that the main pump is the problem. I would rrally like to know what you did to fix it. The more info the better. You mentioned testing by capping the outputs to see if it stalls. If it stalls then the pump is working correctly right? Thanks again, anybody with a boboat bl or an earth force will appreciate this thread. I also a have mover problems in forward and reverse.

As you can see from the thread, there are a lot of in-depth tests which can be run to see what exactly is the problem. Sorry to say, it seems your problem is the same as mine, which is the internals of the pump were worn out. It made no sense whatsoever as the tractor had not been used hard, had 700 hrs on it and all the scheduled maintenance had been done, oil was clean and had been changed at 500 hrs as prescribed.

When I finally eliminated all other possibilities, I pulled the pump and had it torn down by a place that were able to ID the pump and had some experience with them. They found the internals very worn, swash plate, housing, etc. They quoted $2500 and 12-14 weeks to get parts to rebuild. As I needed the tractor sooner than that I spent the $5K on a new pump from Bobcat! It hurt but it was that or junk the tractor. The pump now (as fate would have it) was available on loaderpartsource for $2900!!! Ugh!

Since this post I have been in touch with no fewer than 5 people who have had similar issues or found B200s with less than 1000 hrs on them with dead pumps. It is my opinion that the pump is under rated for the tractor and the hydraulic cooling system is too small. I have retrofitted a second cooler in front of the radiator (no small amount of work or expense) and I think (hope) this helps.

I hope to post a final summary of the issue and resolution here to help people out, but I have not gotten around to it yet.
In the meantime I am happy to help where I can and if you want to contact me directly I am happy to have a call and talk you through the steps to verify the pump is in fact the issue so you can move forward with a solution.

Thanks, Greg

 

[Jimz2]

Dennis,

thanks again for the reply. On moving the oil cooler, I am considering leaving the original in there, and putting an additional decent sized one in front of the radiator with electric fan, and plumbing it in series with the one under the seat. My thinking is I would rather have too much cooling capability than too little.

My questions on this are:
- I assume putting the coolers in series with the one on the radiator being primary and the original under the seat being secondary, with the fan on both actuated from the one sensor in the original one. Any issues you can see with this?

- you wouldn't remember which direction the oil flows in the cooler (i.e. which fitting is inlet and which outlet), as ideally I would like to make the one under the seat the second in the series of the two.

- do you know what PSI the oil in cooler is pumped at, as this is critical in getting a cooler than can handle the pressure. I was looking at generic ones from Zoro or hydraulicsdirect.com that have a 377 max PSI. Seems a bit low, but I cannot find the spec anywhere for what the max or normal pressure in the cooler is. I am guessing it is not too high, but ~350PSI seems low. Just want to make sure I get the right cooler.

I will post my findings/solution to this problem. Hopefully making the adjustments you suggested to: Charge Pressure, Flushing Spool and Torque Limiter will remove the problem when the system is cold, and adding a cooler will make it never happen again.

Thanks again and hope to not have to bother you anymore ... and fingers crossed, problems will be solved. I need to get this thing back running as I am dead in the middle of a job.

Question Earthforce EF3 B200 - Information Request
Hello all! My name is Jim. I recently purchased a1999 Earthforce EF3 machine with 1200 hrs. The seller made me aware that the machine's hydro drive was weak before I purchased it. All the same problems as others who own these type machines. Slows down, weak power as it heats up. I am in the process of removing the main Bondial Pavesi pump and am going to have it either rebuilt or purchase a rebuilt one, as soon as I can get it out of the machine. The 2 main mounting bolts are very inaccessable and I am hoping that I can get to them with a 22mm crowsfoot wrench that I ordered from craftsman. My question today is: from reading others posts on here, (I have been reading 2 other members posts, gjb012 and SSdoxie, and both of you are very knowledgeable on these machines). I read on your posts about hooking an additional oil cooler inline for better cooling of the hydro fluid. I have located the 2 lines out of the existing cooler under the seat and it has 2 lines, one about 1 1/8 going back to reservoir, and the other about 5/8" going up towards the front loader. They are both coming out of the same block on the cooler. I would like to know if anyone has installed any auxilliary coolers on their machines and where would I tap in to the lines?? Would it be just a matter of cutting the line and attaching the cooler hoses with barbed fittings and hose clamps? 1 line to aux cooler intake and 1 line back to cut hose from aux cooler outflow? Although I think that the logical choice of hose to tap into is the larger hose going back to the reservoir, I am scared to tap into the larger of the 2 lines, the one that goes back to reservoir, as I fear the pressure from reducing down from the 1 1/8 hose to the 11/16 aux cooler size hose may be too much, and also, I worry about there not being enough flow volume from this smaller sized hose causing a restriction of flow back to the reservoir. Any guidance anyone can give me on this would truly be much appreciated. Jim

 

[Jimz2]

Cooler up front shouldn't need an electric fan. Oil is only flowing through it when engine is running so engine/radiator fan will draw air through it. I would put front cooler as second in line, not primary. This way the original cooler can reduce fluid temp some degree then the front cooler and finish cooling it. If the front cooler is primary then the radiator will be exposed to that much hotter air cooler heating up the air that much more.

There is no pressure spec on the return (cooler) line. The only pressure seen is what is caused by resistance inside the cooler plus flow through the filter and the filter has 36 psi. by-pass relief. Match the cooler equal to or greater than the combined flow of gear pump (12 GPM) and Charge Pump (8.2 GPM).

No idea which is in & out of the cooler, need to follow the lines at each connection to see where they go or come from. From the Backhoe valve is In to cooler, line going to filter/reservoir is cooler out.

Question Earthforce EF3 B200 - Information Request
Hello all! My name is Jim. I recently purchased a1999 Earthforce EF3 machine with 1200 hrs. The seller made me aware that the machine's hydro drive was weak before I purchased it. All the same problems as others who own these type machines. Slows down, weak power as it heats up. I am in the process of removing the main Bondial Pavesi pump and am going to have it either rebuilt or purchase a rebuilt one, as soon as I can get it out of the machine. The 2 main mounting bolts are very inaccessable and I am hoping that I can get to them with a 22mm crowsfoot wrench that I ordered from craftsman. My question today is: from reading others posts on here, (I have been reading 2 other members posts, gjb012 and SSdoxie, and both of you are very knowledgeable on these machines). I read on your posts about hooking an additional oil cooler inline for better cooling of the hydro fluid. I have located the 2 lines out of the existing cooler under the seat and it has 2 lines, one about 1 1/8 going back to reservoir, and the other about 5/8" going up towards the front loader. They are both coming out of the same block on the cooler. I would like to know if anyone has installed any auxilliary coolers on their machines and where would I tap in to the lines?? Would it be just a matter of cutting the line and attaching the cooler hoses with barbed fittings and hose clamps? 1 line to aux cooler intake and 1 line back to cut hose from aux cooler outflow? Although I think that the logical choice of hose to tap into is the larger hose going back to the reservoir, I am scared to tap into the larger of the 2 lines, the one that goes back to reservoir, as I fear the pressure from reducing down from the 1 1/8 hose to the 11/16 aux cooler size hose may be too much, and also, I worry about there not being enough flow volume from this smaller sized hose causing a restriction of flow back to the reservoir. Any guidance anyone can give me on this would truly be much appreciated. Jim

 

[SSdoxie]

The larger hose going to reservoir is the cooler outlet. If the smaller line runs to front of machine, I have no idea what it connects to unless someone has already added a front cooler.

 

[Jimz2]

The larger hose going to reservoir is the cooler outlet. If the smaller line runs to front of machine, I have no idea what it connects to unless someone has already added a front cooler.

Thanks for the info! I rechecked both hoses coming from the back of the cooler. The larger one does go out to the reservoir and the smaller one goes up to the steering pump. It goes into the upper right side fitting into the steering pump. Why for I do not know as the manuals tell very little about any of this! Perhaps it is just supplying cooled oil to the steering pump? Do you think it would work if I cut this smaller hose and used barbed fittings to connect hoses in and out of auxilliary oil cooler I will mount in front of engine radiator? Or do you think that there would be too much pressure that the barbed connections would leak or blow off?? I really appreciate your knowledge about these things, thanks! Jim

 

[gjb012]

I have installed a cooler in front of the radiator on my Bobcat B200 as suggested by Dennis/SSDoxie and it has worked well. It is installed in series with the under-seat cooler, i.e. I left that cooler in place and added another one after it.

I took off the output (the rear fitting of the cooler) of the under-seat cooler (the hose which runs back into the storage tank) and had a hose made up which has the metric fitting on one end (identical to the one I removed) and then ran the hose alone the right inside of the frame and up to in front of the radiator. This is no small task as I am sure you know, it is a mess of hoses along there, but I was able to do it neatly. I had to cut the lower corner of the radiator surround to get the hoses through.

Then I had a hose made that went from the cooler back to the oil storage tank. Again with a metric fitting on the tank. This was also a bear as the new fitting (90 degrees) was very difficult to get to fit as the offset was slightly smaller than the original and the space is so limited....

I am not sure if you can cut the hoses and put something inline. I expect the pressure is not that high, but I do not know what it would be and what the fittings you are speaking can handle. Perhaps SSDoxie can advise what the discharge pressure is on the output of the cooler, but I am guess it is 100-200PSI max. The oil is of course very hot (~100-120F) so you need a fitting that can withstand this.

I use the following cooler from Zoro - G2040717
COOL-LINE Oil Cooler, Mobile, 2-30 GPM, 14 HP Removal C-14 - G2040717 at Zoro

I will post pictures of the install when I can.

Hope this is helpful.

Greg

 

[Jimz2]

I have installed a cooler in front of the radiator on my Bobcat B200 as suggested by Dennis/SSDoxie and it has worked well. It is installed in series with the under-seat cooler, i.e. I left that cooler in place and added another one after it.

I took off the output (the rear fitting of the cooler) of the under-seat cooler (the hose which runs back into the storage tank) and had a hose made up which has the metric fitting on one end (identical to the one I removed) and then ran the hose alone the right inside of the frame and up to in front of the radiator. This is no small task as I am sure you know, it is a mess of hoses along there, but I was able to do it neatly. I had to cut the lower corner of the radiator surround to get the hoses through.

Then I had a hose made that went from the cooler back to the oil storage tank. Again with a metric fitting on the tank. This was also a bear as the new fitting (90 degrees) was very difficult to get to fit as the offset was slightly smaller than the original and the space is so limited....

I am not sure if you can cut the hoses and put something inline. I expect the pressure is not that high, but I do not know what it would be and what the fittings you are speaking can handle. Perhaps SSDoxie can advise what the discharge pressure is on the output of the cooler, but I am guess it is 100-200PSI max. The oil is of course very hot (~100-120F) so you need a fitting that can withstand this.

I use the following cooler from Zoro - G2040717
COOL-LINE Oil Cooler, Mobile, 2-30 GPM, 14 HP Removal C-14 - G2040717 at Zoro

I will post pictures of the install when I can.

Hope this is helpful.

Greg

Greg, thank you very much for the info. I will check out that cooler and there is a hose shop in the next county over so I will go see them and explain what I am trying to do and hopefully, they can make me up some hoses. My idea was, if the pressure was not that high, I was going to cut the hose and insert a steel barbed fitting made for connecting 2 hoses together, into each of the 2 halves of the cut hose and then run the new hoses as you did with yours. The pressure issue is the biggie here as these kinds of fittings are secured by simple hose clamps. I know the idea will work, but not if the pressure is too high resulting in leakage and/or the hoses coming apart. I will run my idea past the hose shop people and maybe get some more ideas on this but your solution is very good and probably the way I will go. Thanks again. Jim

 

[westcliffe01]

I too have a B200 and so far all of my issues have been related to the "safety circuit" (green button on dash that has to be pushed to enable operation of the hydrostatic drive). The first time I had a problem, it was in fact my alternator that was gone and when the battery voltage would drop, it would reach a threshold where the engine would run, but safety valve would close inhibiting the HST. Replacing the alternator solved this issue.

Since then I have had the issue come up several more times, due to degradation of the wiring harness and connectors used in all the safety circuits. My most recent fix has been to power open the safety valve from a wire from the ignition switch which is "hot" any time that the ignition is turned on. I plan on removing the safety valve from the plumbing to the HST pedal altogether, then the entire maintenance issue will be resolved for good.

My B200 has about 1600 hours on it and it was a rental machine to nearly 1300 hours so it has lived a hard life.

I also decided to replace the HST oil at some point and used ISO 10 hydraulic fluid. Big mistake ! Both the HST and all of the hydraulic functions lost power in a big way, immediately. Reading the service manual, it seems engine oil is used in the hydraulic system, so I now use 15W45 multigrade oil. It takes 2 oil changes (a LOT of oil) to get all of the hydraulic power back after having the thinner oil in the system.

So, be sure that your HST safety valve is not the primary problem with your drive. If for any reason the safety valve is not fully open (due to high resistance somewhere in the harness) you will never get the right response when testing the actual HST pump. The HST safety valve and the pair of neutral pressure switches are under the floorboard on the left side of the machine. The pressure switches are mounted to a common manifold and the actual solenoid valve is further forward by itself. If you measure the resistance of the solenoid it will be a substantial number like 10+ ohms whereas the pressure switches will look like a dead short.

 

[eliwoodchuck]

Hi folks, new here new to tractors, construction machines, hopefully this thread isn’t completely dead. I recently purchased a ingersoll rand bl-275, same as the bobcat b250 or earthforce ef250. I am having a similar issue to everyone here. A weak reverse with weak sound from the back up alarm forward seems fine but slows a little as heat builds. Everything works on this machine and it has 1200 hours. As I research it seems this machine requires a combo hydraulic hydrostatic fluid or 10w30 motor oil for the whole system. My bl275 is full of O’rily auto aw46. Cooler under seat. I am thinking swapping the aw46 for 10w30 swapping the solenoid coil for new, make sure the hydraulic plungers from the pedal are sending full signal to the switches and they are sending full voltage to the solenoid then start testing pilot pressure port pressure the pump and motor. Does this sound like the correct order of operation? Am I correct to swap to bobcats combo oil or motor oil? I am in California so average to hot climate. I will be adding a second oil cooler and am open to any suggestions as to where to start and any modifications needed.