ARC Fault Breakers. Your Experiences.

[Industrial Toys]

If it worked it would have been fantastic. I got my breakers from Habitat for Humanity (Home Depot Returns Probably) So anybodys guess on history.

Kills me that they are so concerned about safety, yet never did anything about the dangerous Stab-Lock (FPE) breakers.

The possibility of falsing on upstream arcs is quite disturbing. Still not exactly sure why they tripped. WELDING? No arcing in that, is there?

Thanks for the good information.

 

[CobyRupert]

One cause that is often overlooked when AFCI or GFCI breakers "nuisance" trip is there actually may be an arc or low level ground fault.
....just saying....

 

[Industrial Toys]

At least I don't have to bugger around with my 8 foot light sockets to try and fix an arcing issue if there are other issues. So out they come. Hassle with the neutral leads. That was quite a bother finding them in a neatly packed panel.

 

[k0ua]

For the amateur radio community arc fault breakers have been the bane of their existence. Think of whole neighborhoods thrust into darkness from a 100 watt amateur station keying up. This has happened in new construction subdivisions where all of the houses are equipped with these same new and very faulty breakers. Even something as benign as a policeman entering your home and keying up a 5 watt walkie talkie can and HAS plunged the house into darkness.

How a product is SUPPOSED to work and be for the benefit of mankind and how the product ACTUALLY works and is a major PITA for all concerned are two different things.

Yes, there have been advancements and solutions by some of the manufactures to make their product less sensitive to RF fields. They should not react at all but they often do. Many products in our society are manufactured with no thought given to how they will work in the real world. These types of problems are often solved at the customers inconvenience and expense. A lot of people have put a lot of money, time, blood, sweat and tears into trying to solve the problems with these "darn" things.

 

[Industrial Toys]

You need to upgrade your spark gap transmitter.

As far as I'm concerned. The Arc Fault breaker is just one more perfect example how the world is out of control.

 

[CobyRupert]

You need to upgrade your spark gap transmitter.

As far as I'm concerned. The Arc Fault breaker is just one more perfect example how the world is out of control.

I see it as:
1) The manufacturers have a vested interest in selling high priced breakers, and when "industry capture" of the regulators occurs (revolving door policies / foxes guarding the hen house), this is one result.
2) Try as you might, it's very hard to argue against the "If it saves just one child, it's all worth it" arguments. "Do you want your child to die?" and other "What if.." arguments.
Who is going to stand up and say "Meh...they're not worth the trouble"? What's the "right" ratio of number of lives saved -to- extra expense and inconvenience? I don't have a good answer.

 

[Industrial Toys]

Even the airline industry accepts a certain number of deaths. There comes a point in economics where you do put value on human life. Unfortunately in cases like this, not only to you have to buy this stuff, but buy it for all the people in your society that can't afford it. Heck, you pay for their Electricity, you might as well pay for their ARC fault breakers too.

 

[grsthegreat]

My experience with arc faults is that they always trip. Period. Plug in a vacuum...they trip. Sometimes static electricity from you hand arcing on coverplate screw trips them. They suck.

 

[Industrial Toys]

And no one thought this might be a problem?

 

[grsthegreat]

And no one thought this might be a problem?

supposedly they are improving design as time goes on....but i still had one trip last year on a new construction job when homeowner had static shock from rayon carpet. kept having trouble. I left it up to them to swap out breaker...as i cant do it on other peoples houses...but i did on my own. i lost those **** breakers day 1 on my place after inspection.

 

[Industrial Toys]

You think they would have outlawed push in terminals before making Arc Fault Protection Law.

 

[k0ua]

supposedly they are improving design as time goes on....but i still had one trip last year on a new construction job when homeowner had static shock from rayon carpet. kept having trouble. I left it up to them to swap out breaker...as i cant do it on other peoples houses...but i did on my own. i lost those **** breakers day 1 on my place after inspection.

That so far is the best answer. Keep a spare box to put all the arc fault breakers in. Replace with regular breakers. When the house goes up for sale, replace the arc fault breakers for the inspector in the states that require them. The new homeowner can do as he likes. If you are a nice guy, you can leave him the box of regular breakers. Up to you.

Of course many people would not have a clue how to replace a breaker and do it safely. Not that a trained chimpanzee could not do it you see, but many peoples mechanical ability and ability to do things safely is somewhat below that standard.

 

[k0ua]

You think they would have outlawed push in terminals before making Arc Fault Protection Law.

That would make too much sense....

 

[Scrambler82]

It was interesting reading the posting, I really don't know the difference between the two type of breakers but I have never had a problem with the Ground Fault type in my minor experience.

What is gained in the ARC Fault vs the Ground Fault ?

 

[Industrial Toys]

GFI detects an unintenional path to ground, like through your radio (or hairdryer) and into the surrounding grounded bathwater it's fallen into.

An arc fault breaker detects arcing from a bad connection, that can cause enough heat to start a fire.

I'm guessing some breakers now can do both.

 

[Chris616]

If it worked it would have been fantastic. I got my breakers from Habitat for Humanity (Home Depot Returns Probably) So anybodys guess on history.

Kills me that they are so concerned about safety, yet never did anything about the dangerous Stab-Lock (FPE) breakers.

The possibility of falsing on upstream arcs is quite disturbing. Still not exactly sure why they tripped. WELDING? No arcing in that, is there?

Thanks for the good information.

Like many on TBN, we live in a place where the house will be a complete loss by the time that the fire department arrives. I weighed the potential benefit of arc-fault breakers against the cost (which is not insignificant) and decided in favour of them. In a couple of years of use we've never had a single nuisance trip of any of the 31 CAFI or combination CAFI/GFCI breakers (Square D QO type (not bought at Habitat for Humanity!))

This was done during replacement of a FPE (Stab-Lok) panel like Tom has commented on. There have been many documented problems with these panels/breakers. If you're not sure of the type of panel in your house, this site is worth a read:
The Federal Pacific Electric FPE Stab-Lok(R) Panel Circuit Breaker Hazard, Repairs, Electrical Panel Replacement Electricians Directory for Stab-Lok(R) Repairs

Chris

 

[Scrambler82]

GFI detects an unintenional path to ground, like through your radio (or hairdryer) and into the surrounding grounded bathwater it's fallen into.

An arc fault breaker detects arcing from a bad connection, that can cause enough heat to start a fire.

I'm guessing some breakers now can do both.

So wht the ARC Fault Breakers have done is two things, one, raised the cost to the consumer, and two, taken the responsibility of not doing a good connecting job away from the Electrician or other person doing the job and laid it squarely in the hands of the consumer.

It is the way the world has been going for a while now.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Chris616]

So wht the ARC Fault Breakers have done is two things, one, raised the cost to the consumer, and two, taken the responsibility of not doing a good connecting job away from the Electrician or other person doing the job and laid it squarely in the hands of the consumer.

It is the way the world has been going for a while now.

Thanks for the info.

Your first point is correct, Grev, but not the second. Arc-faults act as a check on some of the electrician's work. Poor connections that generate an arc will cause the breaker to trip when it's energized and the electrician will have to find the problem.

Arc-fault breakers also protect against homeowners driving screws and nails into wires in walls and rats chewing wire insulation in attics.

Chris

 

[grsthegreat]

Your first point is correct, Grev, but not the second. Arc-faults act as a check on some of the electrician's work. Poor connections that generate an arc will cause the breaker to trip when it's energized and the electrician will have to find the problem.

Arc-fault breakers also protect against homeowners driving screws and nails into wires in walls and rats chewing wire insulation in attics.

Chris

I solved my mouse/rat chewing probability by wiring my entire 2 story house in steel flex and thhn stranded wire. Steel junction boxes also. when i built it. I have ZERO arc fault breaker and have NEVER had a breaker trip...mind you i way over circuited my own house.

 

[Industrial Toys]

ARC FAULT. Like the Airbags of the Automotive Industry.

I haven't yet wired my driveshed built years ago, but have all the conduit and BX ready for the job. Few mice and rodents around with my two cats.