Another hay question

[BryanM]

I am not a farmer or in the hay buissness, but have a few questions about the hay buisness. Too help my questions a little info will probably be usful. I live in northwest ohio , I am interestied in haying 10 acres all flatground no trash or stones.

1 ? On an average year how many bales of hay do you get from 1 acre?
2 ? What kind of mixture fo grasses do most hay farmers sell if they want good quantity and quality?
3 ? how many square bales are in a round bale? or are their different sizes of round?
I think that is all the questions I have right now. I did a search on the subject found lots of hay questions but never found the answer to these. Thanks for your time.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

If you do not have any hay equipment already then I would not try to bale 10 acres unless you want the hay for yourself, even then I would look for someone to custom bale it.

But to answer your questions I will do my best.

Bales per acre depends on a lot of things. This year I averaged 80 bales an acre for first cutting timothy/orchard grass. The bales weigh 40 pounds as that is what my customers want. There was no rain and as a result no second cutting. This is the second year I did not get a second cutting. On a normal year I should have 100 bales an acre for first cutting.

If you are looking to plant your 10 acre field find some potential customers or horse owners and talk to them. Ask them what type of hay they prefer. If you ask 10 people chances are you will get ten different answers. Around here Timothy and Orchard Grass are popular with the horse people. I mix birdsfoot in with my timothy/orchard grass fields. Brome is not as popular here but I have one customer who loves it and buys all the Brome I have. Some people love Reed Canarygrass but you have to cut it early. I also have request from some stable owners for Alfalfa. There really isn't any one perfect hay and if you go south they grow different types of hay. Talk to your potential customers and see what they like.

As for round bales, it all depends on the size round bale and the weight. If you bale 50 pound square bales and 2000 pound round bales then you have 40 squares in one round. If you bale 600 pound bales you have 12 bales in it. Most horse farmers do not want round bales as they prefer the small flakes of the square bale. It allows them to give more accurate rations to each horse. Plus most horse farms are not set up to handle and store round bales. The only time I have ever sold round bales is to grape farmers who wanted it for mulch in the grape rows.

I am located in Western New York right along Lake Erie so our weather is similar to yours. Depending on how heavy the grass is you will usually need at least 4 days to bale your hay. Cut one day, ted the next, rake the third day and bale the 4th. Lay the swath out as wide as your cutter will allow.

 

[scott_vt]

Mornin Bryan,
I think Robert answered all your questions and I dont have alot more to add other than I found this article on haying and found it quite interesting and informative and Im sure you will enjoy the read !

Haying FAQ

 

[BryanM]

thanks guys graet info. I am not sure on why you say if I dont have the equip dont bail ten acres. I relize initial cost of buying equip might be a little high and would not make much profit if any at all, but would probably pay for land and equip payments?

I am still getting info on this little project of mine to see if it is worth doing or not so keep the info coming and thanks for taking the time to point me in a direction thanks again Bryan

 

[Robert_in_NY]

If you want to figure high numbers then say 1500 bales a year at $2 a bale equals $3000 a year. It seems like a lot of money unless you have a bad year, or your hay gets rained on. Now if you have a year like this year then your number goes to $1600 and if it gets rained on you are lucky if you get $800.

You are able to do what ever you want with your money and if you want to get into haying then by all means go for it. But for 10 acres I would not even try. Now if you have some neighboring land you could use then it would make more sense. I have found a lot of land owners here are happy to have me fix up and maintain their fields because they don't have to waste time and money on fuel cutting it.

Best of luck to you on what ever you decide and if you have any other hay questions feel free to ask as there are a few of us on here that play around haying. And there are a few smart ones who no longer play around haying

 

[zzvyb6]

I put a thread together back in June about my simple, low investmeny hay operation. Maybe this pulls it back.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/owning-operating/102970-color-money.html?highlight=color+money

If you have a Tax Accountant put together a business and your township recognizes Agricultural zoning, then there is money to be saved on such an endeavor.

I run about 1500 - 2000 bales a year for the neighbors and a few friends. $2.00 a bale if you help, $2.50 if I drop it off out of the field, $3.50 if it goes into the barn. Do the math. I will deliver to a few special friends. There is very little money spent after the first few years other than 4 boxes of twine, 12 gal of Diesel and maybe a few new cutter knives or holdown clips. Its pure gravey now: work boots, taxes, welder, gas wrench, pto generator, cutoff saw, 18v tools, 4 wheeler, Remington 700, post hole digge, etc: all part of the inventory needed for Farm maintenance and production. (not to mention the tractor, mower, rake and baler. IRS deductions made and approved by the Feds and State. All depreciating wonderfully every year.

All my plants are in full production. Currenly inventorying about 20 acres, including a neighbors 2.5. Maybe I'll add some more next year. Plenty of customers for baled grass hay around here: best thing for pet horses. I'm in Livingston County, MI. Stop in if you want to see what its all about.

 

[farmerjim]

if i were to hay only 10ac i def wouldn't go out and buy brand new equipment. you would take years to make your initial investment back, think about the monthly payment on equipment, that would probably get used for a couple times for the whole summer, i'm not sure you'd make enough off 10ac to pay the eq while its sitting around the rest of the year. think about it even at small sq bale price of $5 a bale 1st cut and say $6 for second cut. if you went out and bought the new equipment. 1 a utility 50hp pto tractor or better is about20k plus new, used about 7-14k depending on what you get. 2. mower conditioner or mower whether it be tow behind or 3pt your looking at 5k plus. 3. tedder 2 or 4 basket probably a 4 basket as it will save time new is probably 3k 4. a rake again new depending on what you get rotary or wheel or rollabar is going to be about 3k as well. 5 the baler which is going to push about 8-10k or more. if getting into this venture for only 10ac i would get some good older equipment and see how that goes or even if feasible try rent some of the more expensive eq like a mower or baler. good luck if you do decide to go for it. i would also check out zzvy thread on his set up, looks to be a good plan/operation. i have a similiar small scale op myself only i give most of the hay to our own cows. there is also a book i saw one day at tsc called small scale haymaking they had some good things in there as well, i'm not too sure on the author though. fell free to ask any more ?'s as needed like mentioned b4 there a bunch of us who play around w/ haying here.

 

[BryanM]

What I was thinking was buying all used equipment, auction stuff that sort of thing. I went threw and looked on line last night and found some equipment that was pretty cheap, granted I dont know what kind of shape it is in but I definately wouldnt be buying new.

Another route was I have a few friends that are farmers and thought I may be able to have their help to get started. I have not yet talked to them about this hair brain idea yet but I will maybe even work out some kind of custom bailing not sure yet, just trying to get my ducks in row before I go and do something stupid.

Really my main goal of this project was to be able to pay for the land that I would be purchasing, not to make a living at it, I was thinking I would be able to doo this for a few years and pay off the property and any equip I might use and get a couple tax breaks. but I dont want to do it if it is just a black hole type of hobby. I still have some research to do but keep the comments coming because I do value all of them!

 

[Robert_in_NY]

You know, I was thinking about what you were wanting to do and I am not sure how your area is exactly but you might want to look into a pick your own strawberry, raspberry and blue berry field. My friends up here that do strawberry fields figure they make roughly $8-$10k per acre. You don't need more then 1-2 acres of strawberries and you will get 3-5 years out of the field (at least you will in my area).

You have the labor issue for planting but that is about it. You will easily make more money with fruits and vegetables then you will hay and you won't need as much equipment.

If you do plan on going the haying route then make sure you have someone who knows balers go over them with you before you buy. Also, if you are going the auction route do your homework before the auction. Some balers have a terrible reputation and no parts support. You will definitely want to see what dealers you have in your area and if they are set up to support a hay operation. My dealers up here carry a lot of baler and cutter parts in stock but I have been to other dealers that don't carry much of anything so if you needed a part they would have to order it.

If you plan on only 10 acres then you can get away with an older haybine which will cost around $1k for something in average condition. My only experience with haybines was a New Holland 489 and it did a good job but the rubber was coming off the crimppers and those are expensive to replace so you will want to check on those. Other brands used steel which some people prefer over the rubber for dry down time.

When I was looking to buy a baler a few years back I had a great deal on a New Holland 326 that looked brand new even though it was around 10 years old if I recall. But it was in the middle of winter and I dragged my feet and the dealer sold it to someone else. That was priced around $3500. I ended up buying a New Holland 575 for $7500 in great condition with the model 72 thrower. I bought two metal kicker wagons for $2k each then added 2 more over the next year ($3k for a new kicker rack and I used a gear I had and I bought another used one for $1600)

The rake was a NH 256 that was given to me as payment but normally they cost around $2-$3k for a decent used one. I bought a 4 star tedder at an auction for $1600.

Farmerjim, I have sold hay to a lady in Cape Cod and she told me about the prices you guys get out there. You are lucky but once you get into WNY, WPA and Ohio the prices are not there because there is plenty of hay (usually) and a lot of farmers who do not value their time. I know one farmer who sells his hay for $1 a bale regardless of the market. My friends who bale hay in Ohio report similar situations there. But we all hear of how much money we can make shipping hay to the East coast or Flordia.

 

[jimg]

I was planning to buy a NH haybine but got a good deal on a pair of MF 725s (the MF haybine equivalent). In retrospect I think it worked out better in that the conditioners on the MF machine are pretty nearly bulletproof. That is, theres no rubber to delaminate. The top roller is steel w/ steel ribs welded on in a spiral and the bottom is sections of 'tire' material in a long stack w/ grooves cut to accept the ribs. I just cant see that ever wearing out. Other than that its pretty much the same as a haybine....in fact nearly identical. So when youre looking for equipment keep your options open. I think going to an auction would be hard unless you knew a lot about farm machinery or you could get a piece really cheap. So far Ive gotten all my gear in private sales. This way I can see it run and ask plenty of questions.

During the summer I was looking at a Hesston 4570 inline baler. It needed some work and the salesman (where I bought my tractor) put in a shop ticket to get it ready to sell (to me). The work took a couple weeks and when I called again to see it run I was told they had sold it. This is was a really nice baler for short $$ (about $5k). I was *very* disappointed about seeing that baler go b/c I like the inline concept. So far Ive not seen any others locally. My plan B is to find a good NH 311, 316 or 326 and its looking like Ill need to go out of state for those....which adds to the cost. Im going to keep looking thru the winter though.

ETA: Robert that price on the 326 is *very* good. You really missed out on a great deal!

Another very good source of infos on machinery is on ytmag in the implement alley forum. You should check that out for sure!

 

[jimg]

One more thing I meant to add...before you plant anything figure out what your market is. To a large degree thatll dictate package (small sq or round bale) and species (grass and/or legume) youll plant.

For my market Im going to plant one field w/ orchard grass and some legume (not sure which) and another with bermuda. With our weather Im planning on 2 cuts for the orchard grass and 1 in a bad year. However, I think I can get 3 or 4 reliably w/ the bermuda by double cropping it w/ rye in a good year and 2 or perhaps 3 in a bad year.

I think doing a budget (one for establishment and another for maintenance) is important. OH state has loads of online resources for this and nearly all the other questions youd likely ask.

 

[farmerjim]

as far as my market when i do sell its mostly very picky horse people w/ loads of cash, or some regular joes like myself w/ a few animals like goats or cows or a horse or 2 and the picky rich people usually want you to deliver it/unload and stack it in their barn, again thats where some local guys are charging the $5-6 per bale and some of them will just deliver it and thats it. i usually sell 1st cut 2.75 and 2nd cut 3.00 per bale, but i may up it a touch as fuel is going up and so are some other necessitys for making hay. my 1st cut is mostly a timothy, orchard mix w/ some red clover in there, usually by the time the weather coperates it s started to get stalky, but the cows seem to like it better. 2nd cut is almost all orchard and clover depending on the weather and growth conditions. i really need to do some work and no till in some better grasses for a better 2nd cut crop. i have also in years past done a 3rd cutting this time of year and just picked it up loose or baled it rather green and fed it out fresh, tough 2 get hay to dry in my area this time of year w/ dew/frost. something to think about hard and do the research on for your location and soil type is what grass to produce, i would def give the local extension a call and b4 planting if starting fresh or even overseeding get some soil samples and ask what everyone is growing . as far as my equipment goes i have all much older stuff 2 older deeres jd 50/ 2010 and my jd790 is used for raking/tedder. i cut w/ the jd50 and an old #8 w/ 7ft cutterbar then go over it w/ a nh404 crimper on 1st cut, this process takes the most time either ill cut or run the crimper and my dad does the other. then after dry down we bale w/ an old jd 24t pto baler on the old 2010, imo if your looking to do small sq bales you can't go wrong w/ any of the older jd/nh balers they will make very uniform bales and are very consistant and very reliable when you keep up on the maintainenance. we're in the process of upgrading the 2010 to a newer utility w/ loader of at least 50pto hp and i'm saving to get either a 3pt disc or discbine, if not atleast an older moco. if i had 10 ac to spare i would def consider doing veggies and pyo berries, like robert said, def a money maker imo. around my area strawberries/blueberries/rasberries are all hot comodity in season and the people seem to love to go out and gather them, saving you the picking labor. this season i'm satrting up a roadside stand at my place as i grow a bunch of veggies and i have rasberries and blueberries. however this venture is at my place off the farm where the hay and cows are.

 

[flusher]

I am not a farmer or in the hay buissness, but have a few questions about the hay buisness. Too help my questions a little info will probably be usful. I live in northwest ohio , I am interestied in haying 10 acres all flatground no trash or stones.

1 ? On an average year how many bales of hay do you get from 1 acre?
2 ? What kind of mixture fo grasses do most hay farmers sell if they want good quantity and quality?
3 ? how many square bales are in a round bale? or are their different sizes of round?
I think that is all the questions I have right now. I did a search on the subject found lots of hay questions but never found the answer to these. Thanks for your time.

Same here. I'm not a hay farmer, but hope to become one. Got 10 acres of flat pasture of which 7 acres are now native grasses (aka weeds). Got tired of just mowing this area with the brush hog. So I've been getting stuff together to go haying.

Tractors:

New 2005 Kubota B7510HST (17 hp pto) with LA302 FEL ($12,600, 10% down, 0% for 36 months)--my general purpose utility tractor. Will probably use this one for seeding, fertilizing, raking, tedding and moving single hay bales with a custom hay clamp I'm going to build this winter.

1964 MF-135 diesel (38 hp pto, $3600) -- plowing, discing, mowing, baling. A fun machine to play around with also. Tractor has been rewired, new gauges installed, horizontal exhaust removed and replaced by vertical system, repainted, serviced. Runs fine. A few minor leaks. Have put about $500 worth of new parts in it. Need to reinstall the sheet metal one of these days.

6'ft offset disc (gratis from neighbor) -- heavy duty tilling. Got five 18" dia replacement blades last week. Needs a good cleaning and lube job.

6'ft pull type sicklebar mower ($150) -- picked this up last week from an ad in the local supermarket classifieds.

Plan to look at a used wheel rake next week and see if I can make a deal on it. I would really like to find one of those rake-tedder combos, used.

Looking for a 2-14 plow for the 135, an 8-ft grain drill and a baler.

Once I get my hands on all this stuff, I'll be in good shape to go haying.

I know that I'm just piddling around here. But it's relatively inexpensive fun. Don't expect to make money on this deal, just enjoying the challenge. I'll be happy if I can get 30-40 bales per acre.

 

[zzvyb6]

Nows the time to check out any local auctions for equipment, especially the baler. Get a manual immediately for the model you get. It will show you how to adjust for plastic or sisal twine. Empty the machine and turn it over by hand until you know every single step of the knotting sequence. Replace or repair any worn out parts. Its this machine that is the most fun to understand and set up. The needle, tucker finger, bale hook and twine disk system sequences are very ingenious and critical to success of your season. Ask any questions you have right here. We have various machine models, parts books, recommended practice tips and tricks from all sorts of vintage and new machines.

An old friend gave me some advice when I started out green, that nothing has really changed in 70 years. Cut at a fast walk, rake in the same direction, single or double windrow depending on hay volume and keep your hands and feet out of the moving parts.

Feed your very first bale to a special 4 legged friend. They will love you forever.

 

[BryanM]

Thats kinda what I had in mind just picking up a few pieaces of used equipment at auctions, my biggest expense probably would be a tractor of high enough hp. Which seems to be an on going disscusion about if a 30 to 35 hp or lighter tractor beable to handle the baler. My homework tells me that it can be done but you will have to be somewhat picky about the baler you get although it seems as if you pick an older jd or NH you will be alright. Correct me if I am wrong.
I actually have thought about the comments on the berries(good idea) although I think the lablors needed to do this would probably be greater than What I had intended to spend for hay equipment. I plan on attending a few auctions in the upcoming weeks just for research on haying equip in my area.their seems to be alot of older equip up for sale.

As far as cutting go for this area of NW ohio the hayers got 4 cuttings and one of the guys I work with said his family was getting extemely high dollars for his hay. I dont know just what I was told, I still have alot of homework to do. But If I do this I am going to have to remember my goals which where Hay pays for land and tax break wiether its worth the risk? Keep the advice coming if nothing else I am learning that their is alot more to haying than meets the eye!! Thanks

 

[jimg]

The PYO berry thing can be a mixed sort of affair. In many areas its very lucrative. OTOH theres a good bit of watching and maintenance involved. Some folks just trample your plants w/o any regard and/or waste the fruit, etc. So you really need to make sure you keep a close eye on things when your field is open. What the PYO crowd doesnt get youll have to figure out how to harvest and store. You should really study up on it before you leap. A really good field trip would be to some of the local PYO berry operations and ask questions.

I think your plan to attend some auctions is a good idea. The implement alley forum at ytmag is also very good. Theres lots of good info there!

When you settle on a baler(s) I would strongly recommend getting the operator manual prior to purchase and read thru it carefully. Then youll go into the sale w/ some knowledge of where things are, how they should be adjusted etc.

 

[CharlieTR]

There is a load a great replies here. I always love reading about hay (is that normal?)

Like JimG mentioned Grass or Lagumes? If hay is the chosen crop, think about Alfalfa in small bales. That is (at least down here in TX where we can't grow it much) about twice what grass hay sells for. Has the highest protein content. Either grass or legume, go with small bales, they bring more money.
Don't get too small of a tractor, get 60 HP or bigger really need 4 cylinder engine.

Be careful at those auctions, that is just another way to say annonymous seller. People take expensive broke stuff to the auctions so no one can come back to them.

I love that idea of berries or fruit. Farmers have two choices, high labor or high capital equipment. But with labor, anyone can start.

FORGET ABOUT THAT TAX RIGHT-OFF. YOU WILL NOT QUALIFY FOR THAT.
That is for farmers with one job - FARMING. You cannot take income from source A (your job) and take deductions for venture B. Can be a hobby farmer and right-off the income from your farmer. Example: Sell product at $10,000 take $10,000 deduction. If someone tells you different, let me know I will send you chapter and verse of tax code.

 

[scott_vt]

Afternoon Bryan,
I see you bought a sicklebar mower ! You didnt mention where you are located, but I thought I would mention one thing to you ! The problem with a sicklebar mower is that it doesnt crimp the hay. By not crimping the hay it takes longer to dry. That may not be a real problem in certain parts of the country but in the northeast its sometimes tuff to string 3 dry days together to do the job ! A mower conditioner is the prefered implement for the job. JMO.

 

[flusher]

Afternoon Bryan,
I see you bought a sicklebar mower ! You didnt mention where you are located, but I thought I would mention one thing to you ! The problem with a sicklebar mower is that it doesnt crimp the hay. By not crimping the hay it takes longer to dry. That may not be a real problem in certain parts of the country but in the northeast its sometimes tuff to string 3 dry days together to do the job ! A mower conditioner is the prefered implement for the job. JMO.

scott_vt: I posted the photo of the sicklebar mower, if that's what you're referring to.

I would like to find a mower-conditioner around here in my price range, but so far no luck. I see a lot of used moco's on eBay but they're pretty expensive and are usually found East of the Rockies. Hauling cost becomes a big factor.

At $150 I couldn't pass up that tow-behind sicklebar mower.

No problem here in the North Valley stringing together a week or more of clear skies. The average annual rainfall here is about 20". So conditioning isn't as important here as it is back East.

If I need to crimp, I'll try to find an old-fashioned pull-type crimper. There's a pretty nice junkyard South of town that has all kinds of antique farm stuff. If that guy doesn't have one, he'll know where to get it.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

scott_vt: I posted the photo of the sicklebar mower, if that's what you're referring to.

I would like to find a mower-conditioner around here in my price range, but so far no luck. I see a lot of used moco's on eBay but they're pretty expensive and are usually found East of the Rockies. Hauling cost becomes a big factor.

At $150 I couldn't pass up that tow-behind sicklebar mower.

No problem here in the North Valley stringing together a week or more of clear skies. The average annual rainfall here is about 20". So conditioning isn't as important here as it is back East.

If I need to crimp, I'll try to find an old-fashioned pull-type crimper. There's a pretty nice junkyard South of town that has all kinds of antique farm stuff. If that guy doesn't have one, he'll know where to get it.

My dad used to tell me I wouldn't miss what I never knew about. (I THINK he was referring to my common sense, or gross lack there-of at the time ) Well, I applied that logic to my hayin' for most of my years. I started off with a Massey Ferguson #41 DynaBalance 7' sickle bar when I first started. Then I bought (in 1976) a New Holland 451 7'er that I still use to this day. I always knew that things would be better with a mower/conditioner, but being a tightwad, it ain't happenin'. I lost a few cutting to rain because of that extra day or so on the ground, but all in all, my hay was usually of good quality.

It's all about a balance of available cash, available time, and desired yields/quality of crop. Basic, simple, old fashioned equipment more than adaquately met my needs. No reason why the very same system can't work for people in a simular situation.