Another bullet question.

[N80]

Brief preface for those who don't know me: hunted all my life but never been into guns per se. Killed a good many deer. My Dad always did or helped me with the sighting in. He gave me almost every gun I have. He also bought all my ammo, but I never used much. Well, Dad's got Alzheimers and I've got his guns now and I'm getting into guns a little more. Game is mostly deer, hogs, coyotes and turkey in the spring. Rarely if ever shoot more than 100 yards at big game.

Anyway, I went to buy some ammo today. Have always primarily used Remington soft point Core-Lokt bullets. Have never had any problems with them. I have shot a few boxes of Federal Premium 30-06 with Nosler partitions at deer. Got good results but no noticeable difference between them and the Remingtons. So I'm looking at ammo at one of the big box sporting goods stores and there are the Remington bullets for about $18. Right next to them are the Federals for about $36!

Okay, some I'm guessing that with the Federals you probably get a higher quality Nosler bullet that may (or may not) have better deformation and retained mass qualities. I'm sure they are more uniform and consistent in terms of dimensions, weight and shape. I suppose the case and primer might be a little better and maybe there is better uniformity in terms of powder loads, etc.

The question is, does any of that make any difference for hunting deer at less than 100 yards and maybe, very rarely out to 200? I'm assuming not and being the Scots-Irish tightwad that I am I bought twice as much ammo by buying the Remington over the Federal.

Thanks for any input.

 

[k0ua]

There are many better bullet designs than a Remington Core-Lokt. And not everyone hunts deer at 100 yards near home. Some people risk huge sums of money on hunts, sometimes for dangerous or exotic game. So yes there are lots of choices in the marketplace for us to choose. Now as to your direct question, I doubt the white-tails are gonna notice which cartridge/bullet combo you have loaded up. So sure, the old Remington loads are gonna work fine. If I had paid thousands of dollars on an Alaskan or African hunt.. I would probably shop around a bit. Heck this year I shot my little buck with a 12 guage foster slug.. Not some fancy smancy slug mind you, just an ole timey chunk of lead. It worked!

James K0UA

 

[vtsnowedin]

As I've said elsewhere on TBN I've tested both of these bullets in wet newsprint. They both give excellent results and a deer closer then 300 yards will never know the difference. The Noslers are one hundred percent reliable and if I was going to Alaska or Africa to hunt dangerous game that is what I'd use but for everything in the lower 48 the cor-loks are the way to go for us skinflints.
Also I've hand-loaded quite a bit and today you have to get very good at it to exceed the consistency the factory machinery turns out . Unless you shoot something no longer loaded by the factories like my 7x57 Mauser loaded with 175gr. bullets at 2580fps you might as well shoot the factory stuff at Walmart.

 

[EddieWalker]

My experince is that there isn't a measureable amount of difference between most ammo or calibers out there. For deer hunting, you have dozens of calibers that will do the job and do it well. You can't made the animal any deader then dead!!!

I think most of it is marketing and bragging rights. Mine is better then yours type thing, or for those who like to read up on it, that feeling that they made the best choice of what's available, even though the difference isn't noticable out in the field.

Having said that, I buy premium bullets for my rifles. I don't care to shoot, and I'm not that into guns. I do like to hunt and I know that the most accurate bullet in my rifle is all that matters. I've tried a variety of cheaper bullets and have found that Federal Premium BTSP 165 grain bullets will give me one inch groups at 100 yards in my Remington 700 BDL .30-06. I've shot deer at over 300 yards several times with that combo.

On video, I shot a running buck at over 300 yards. On another hunt, all I could see was the bucks head. I aimed for between the eyes and hit it in the eye at close to 300 yards. Having confidence in the accuracy of the bullets made me comfortable taking those shots.

Eddie

 

[nybirdman]

I hand load and always have used Nosler bullets for deer.I load Nosler Partition in 25/06 for deer and ballistic tip for site in and coyotes.In my 30/06 I have used 165 Ballistic tip and currently Accubond ,all by Nosler.I have killed deer from 10-300 yards and the bullets have performed perfectly.By the way a ten yard shot at 3000 ft/sec (25/06) is really hard on bullet performace.An example this year,had a buck facing me at 160 yards,hit him dead center of chest and he dropped in his tracks.Would a Remington core-loc performed the same,don't know and not willing to take the chance.Is the premium ammo worth it,for sure ,you may only get one shot. I do purchase factory ammo for my other guns it will be Federal.

 

[vtsnowedin]

I hand load and always have used Nosler bullets for deer.I load Nosler Partition in 25/06 for deer and ballistic tip for site in and coyotes.In my 30/06 I have used 165 Ballistic tip and currently Accubond ,all by Nosler.I have killed deer from 10-300 yards and the bullets have performed perfectly.By the way a ten yard shot at 3000 ft/sec (25/06) is really hard on bullet performace.An example this year,had a buck facing me at 160 yards,hit him dead center of chest and he dropped in his tracks.Would a Remington core-loc performed the same,don't know and not willing to take the chance.Is the premium ammo worth it,for sure ,you may only get one shot. I do purchase factory ammo for my other guns it will be Federal.

Heck you may not get even one shot which is how many I got this season. I experimented with ballistic tips a few years back and finally decided that they were a bit too lightly constructed and that the core locs were better for all round use. Just my opinion of course based on my limited evidence. Some people love them others hate them.

 

[N80]

I have not killed a deer in 3 years, but it is because I've been taking my daughter and letting her shoot them. She has killed 4 nice eight pointers and two smaller bucks during that time. All were killed with these cheap-o Remingtons in .308. Closest shot, probably 45 yards, longest shot right at 100. All killed with one shot. Two of them ran about 15 yards. The others fell in their tracks. I have killed 4 pigs during this time, ranging from 50 pounds to 250 pounds, same bullet in .270 or 30-06. One ran about 20 yards. The 250 pounder never even quivered. Prior to that I was killing about one good sized eight pointer each year for a number of years. All with Core-Lokt. I have not shot at a deer twice as long as I can remember. I have not had a deer run out of sight as long as I can remember and most fell in their tracks.

Now, with the deer I'm particular about only taking money shots....I'll wing anything at a pig.

All of that is to say that for me, in the last 10 years at least, there has not been a single 'bad outcome' that I could attribute to these bullets. So if they're batting 1000 then why pay double for something else?

Anyway, I completely understand why others would opt for better ammo, but can't see any point in doing so with my current hunting conditions and practices.

 

[k0ua]

I have not killed a deer in 3 years, but it is because I've been taking my daughter and letting her shoot them. She has killed 4 nice eight pointers and two smaller bucks during that time. All were killed with these cheap-o Remingtons in .308. Closest shot, probably 45 yards, longest shot right at 100. All killed with one shot. Two of them ran about 15 yards. The others fell in their tracks. I have killed 4 pigs during this time, ranging from 50 pounds to 250 pounds, same bullet in .270 or 30-06. One ran about 20 yards. The 250 pounder never even quivered. Prior to that I was killing about one good sized eight pointer each year for a number of years. All with Core-Lokt. I have not shot at a deer twice as long as I can remember. I have not had a deer run out of sight as long as I can remember and most fell in their tracks.

Now, with the deer I'm particular about only taking money shots....I'll wing anything at a pig.

All of that is to say that for me, in the last 10 years at least, there has not been a single 'bad outcome' that I could attribute to these bullets. So if they're batting 1000 then why pay double for something else?

Anyway, I completely understand why others would opt for better ammo, but can't see any point in doing so with my current hunting conditions and practices.

I would say "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" Sounds like you are having good results with the Rem's

 

[gsganzer]

There are essentially 3 types of bullet designs; cup and core, bonded and monolithic. These three bullet designs further fall into two catagories; flat base or boat tailed. I think for whitetail (or any other thin skinned game), almost any bullet design is adequate to ethically kill them at ranges out to 200yds. Even for thick skinned game, you're probably in good shape if you make a good shot. For shooting hogs, I shoot the plain silver box winchesters (cup and core bullet) and have no issues.

I think bullet design plays a bigger role when shooting longer distances and using some of the smaller calibers. With the exception of shooting hogs, I shoot almost exclusively monolithic bullets (particularly Barnes bullets if they group well out of my gun). If I'm shooting animals for meat or trophy, I shoot almost exclusively monolithic bullets for a couple of reasons:

1. I want an exit wound. Monolithic bullets are typically tougher bullets that expand less but penetrate more, resulting in an exit wound even when encountering bone. An exit wound is very beneficial for a blood trail to follow.

2. In my experience, I get significantly less "blood shot meat" when using monolithics. These bullets drill straight through and retain most of their weight. I have countless examples where I've drilled an animal directly behind the shoulder and it's excited directly behind the far shoulder with minimal meat damage. Cup and core or bonded will typically ruin the far shoulder or at least result is some damaged meat.

 

[CurlyDave]

Years ago I tried various factory loads in my .308 BLR. The Remington's gave me the best groups and I keep buying them.

I always go out of my way to get the 180 grain bullets instead of the 150's. The reason is that I can sight it in once, and no matter what the game: Deer, Elk, Bear, or Cougar the 180 grain bullet will do the job on it.

 

[EddieWalker]

Gordon,

I tried the Barns X bullets and didn't care for them. I haven't tried the newer versions, but have since changed my view on reloading and premium bullets. My thinking at the time of going with the Barns was based on all the great reviews I was reading in the magazines. It was the hardest hitting, best expanding bullet ever type of stuff. I shot caribou, deer, elk and ten animals in Namibia with those bullets and found that there was absolutely no consitancy in how well they expanded. With a .338 mag shooting 200 grain bullets, I never had them go all the way through anything I shot. Same thing with 150 grain bullets in my .30-06. It took months to come up with a consitant load, but I never liked what they did on animals.

That experience is where I realized that the magazines and "experts" are just selling products. I also don't think there is a big difference between calibers or bullets. It's all about accuracy and what works in your barrel. What works in my rifle might now work in yours. Instead of uncounted hours working up loads and spending time at the range, I bought a box of premium ammo, shot it and went from there.

All this is based on thin skinned, non dangerous game. If and when I ever hunt Cape Buffalo, I'm going to do what my PH recomends and rely on shot placement more then solid or soft tip. Just think of how many elephant where shot with small bore calibers under .30 a hundred years ago!!!

Eddie

 

[nybirdman]

Quote from American Rifleman Nov.2010 John Barness author.Expanding bullets and how they work.
"part of the reason why many bullets are found just under the hide on the far side of big-game animals;fresh animal hide is fairly tough,somewhat elastic,and only lightly connected to the muscle underneath.Most expanded bullets are rounded into the classic mush-room,so they can't cut their way through the hide at vastly reduced velocity.Instead they tend to push the hide away from the muscle until the hide stops streching and snaps back."This all makes sense,and the fact that the bullets were recovered means that they did their job.

 

[gsganzer]

Here's one of the reasons I got turned off from using cup and core or bonded bullets for trophy hunting or meat hunting. This Nosler Accubond was recovered under the skin on the far shoulder of a blackbuck ram, shot perfectly in the shoulder. It was shot at 60 yards with a .257 weatherby and didn't exit. When field dressing the animal, the internals were completely liquified, including the stomach (even though it was shot clean in the shoulder). This resulted in a lot of contaminated and wasted meat. It's certainly not a bullet failure, because the animal dropped in its tracks. But if I was using a monolithic bullet, it would have been just as dead with an exit wound and less wasted meat.

This also proves nybirdmans quote that the rounded bullets are often contained by the elastic skin (which I've seen often with cup and core or bonded bullets). I shot a 125# hog at 10 yards with a .44 mag lever gun and recovered the bullet under the far skin, due to it's large and smooth frontal area after expansion. The monolithic bullets will have sharper petals and typically cut through the elastic skin giving you an exit wound and blood trail.

I don't use monolithics for all my shooting and agree that they're awfully expensive. But if I can get a Barnes or other monolithic bullet to group well in my gun, then that's typically what I'll use for hunting game.

 

[Redbug]

I have several calibers 3006 and up. I have had the best results with the good old Remington Core-Lokt's. I like the 150 grain core-lokt with the 3006.

 

[Tollster]

If I am new to a rifle I will typically purchase various brands (minimum of 3, typically I try 5, then write on the box for reference) of ammunition of the same grain weight, then use what groups best in my gun. I too am a 100 yarder here in the northeast, if I hit what I am aiming at, there's a very good chance its going down, regardless of bullet design.

 

[czechsonofagun]

I reload and use Hornady bullets almost exclusively. Tried some Remingtons, but they were all over the paper, while Hornady had holes kissing or better.

 

[studor]

I have reloaded and used just about every brand of bullet you can probably think of and would agree with others that where it is put is more important than what it is. If you are happy with the performance then that's what counts.
When shotguns only season was first introduced locally I tried all kinds of slugs (tough on the shoulder )and settled on "copper solids" because they were extremely accurate. The first deer I shot with one looked like it had been killed by swallowing a hand grenade!
A lot of times I will develop handloads with a cheaper bullet then use a premium bullet of the same weight to see how it shoots. I find that often the premium bullets are harder to find an accurate loading for.
I do think that a deer hit with a bullet in the heart lung area cannot tell if it was a premium or standard bullet! JMHO