alternatives - hand digging perimeter drain

[2manyrocks]

I've got to install 50 feet of 4" perimeter drain to fix a crawl space moisture problem. The house has a brick exterior. The city ran the sewer line to the neighbor's house only 10" from the back wall. So unless I want to relocate that line, the backhoe won't work, and it's starting to look like a shovel job to cut say a 6" by 12" trench for the drain that will be graveled and wrapped in filter fabric.

Anybody used a lawn edger or a cable trencher or something else like that to loosen the dirt?

Other problem is I can't get a pickup into the back yard where I'll have to install the gravel in the trench. I was thinking of putting a bunch of 5 gallon buckets in the truck and having the gravel yard fill the buckets inside the truck bed. Then I'll take them out one by one to the trench or dump them one by one into a wheel barrow.

Any other ideas?

 

[inmaestro]

Sounds like a difficult job. Before you get started, be sure your solution will work. If surface water is the issue, can you slope the grade away from the house? Creating a trench drain at grade level on the exterior of a crawlspace is seldom the best solution. Maybe I misunderstand your problem, but trench drain tile belongs at or below the footing. Let us know how it works out.

 

[J_J]

Why not hand dig the area around the sewer line, and use the BH for the rest of the trench. Here is an unloader for a pickup bed from HF. Once the gravel is loaded on the truck, you lay the tailgate down and turn the crank, and the load slides out over the tailgate in to your wheel barrow, or whatever.

Will work for sand, gravel, wood, mulch, etc

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?category=Material+Handling&q=unloader

 

[Egon]

What equipment do you have available?

The trench is six inches wide and twelve inches deep?

What type of soil do you have to dig in?

Where does the excess soil go to?

For handling the gravel just have it dumped in the P/U bed and hand shovel it into a wheelbarrow. Shovel from a kneeling position and it goes quite quickly.

 

[buckeyefarmer]

PHD is the poor mans backhoe. Drill a bunch of holes in a row and clean out between with a shovel.

 

[JimRB]

My parents had hand dug 6 feet down trying to get their basement to stay dry. It did not work as the problem was they needed to slope soil away from the house a good ways plus there was no where to go with a french drain if they did one. Perferated pipe of course needs to have a lower point to drain to. As far as digging I use a mattock like this. Sears: Online department store featuring appliances, tools, fitness equipment and more I have hard when dry, not as hard when wet Georgia clay and a mattock works well when the clay is not dead bone dry.

Gravel yard has a big scoop rubber tired loader. They dump 1 ton scoop in trailer or pickup bed. Flat shovel to unload. Piece of plywood under gravel may help.

 

[2manyrocks]

First, thank you all for the suggestions.

6" x 12" is a rough guess of what I need to dig. This house has a step foundation. Could be I would have to go 18" here in middle TN to get to the footer. The soil can be dug by hand, but would be a chore.

I don't how to explain very well, but for lack of a better description, I have a compound slope problem that hits at the back corner of this house. It is like I am getting water from two slopes that meet at the corner and then run down the back wall where the sewer line runs and a side wall that doesn't have a sewer line to contend with.

The way the lot slopes, I'd have to bring in a dozer and tear out the two trees in the backyard to change the slope. But it's a small lot, and I'm not sure that I have the available space to do much.

The most easy approach for me would be to take the BH and dig a french drain on the other side of the sewer line away from the house, but I'm not sure how effective this would be in keeping the water out of the crawl space compared to putting a perimeter drain at the footer at the house. I could make the french drain 20" wide with the BH bucket where the perimeter drain at the footer would have to be less than 10" because of the sewer line location.

On the shorter side wall where there is no sewer line, I was going to use the BH to dig out a trench fairly close to the house, but hand dig to the foundation so I don't break the brick.

 

[2manyrocks]

First, thank you all for the suggestions.

6" x 12" is a rough guess of what I need to dig. This house has a step foundation. Could be I would have to go 18" here in middle TN to get to the footer. The soil can be dug by hand, but would be a chore.

I don't how to explain very well, but for lack of a better description, I have a compound slope problem that hits at the back corner of this house. It is like I am getting water from two slopes that meet at the corner and then run down the back wall where the sewer line runs and a side wall that doesn't have a sewer line to contend with.

The way the lot slopes, I'd have to bring in a dozer and tear out the two trees in the backyard to change the slope. But it's a small lot, and I'm not sure that I have the available space to do much.

The most easy approach for me would be to take the BH and dig a french drain on the other side of the sewer line away from the house, but I'm not sure how effective this would be in keeping the water out of the crawl space compared to putting a perimeter drain at the footer at the house. I could make the french drain 20" wide with the BH bucket where the perimeter drain at the footer would have to be less than 10" because of the sewer line location.

On the shorter side wall where there is no sewer line, I was going to use the BH to dig out a trench fairly close to the house, but hand dig to the foundation so I don't break the brick.

 

[dstig1]

First, thank you all for the suggestions.

But it's a small lot, and I'm not sure that I have the available space to do much.

The most easy approach for me would be to take the BH and dig a french drain on the other side of the sewer line away from the house, but I'm not sure how effective this would be in keeping the water out of the crawl space compared to putting a perimeter drain at the footer at the house. I could make the french drain 20" wide with the BH bucket where the perimeter drain at the footer would have to be less than 10" because of the sewer line location.

As you noted, slope is the primary defense against water intrusion. Since there is little you can do about that, you are into plan B, which is not as good. My own opinion, is that if you are stuck relying on Plan-B french drains and footing drains as the only thing to combat your water problem, you need a layered defense. Don't count on any one system to do it all. Lay an outer perimeter french drain, and then add the footing drains. You should also check for waterproofing on the foundation, but that may not mean much with a slab on grade.

Cut trenches, line with filter fabric, line with 1" of pea gravel (or other clean uniform fill), lay filter fabric covered drain tile on top of gravel, complete fill with pea gravel and cap with more filter fabric and reasonably drainable dirt (not clay). Run trenches to dry wells (hopefully down slope of the house) or daylight. Repeat at footing drains. The other thing you can do is leave a slight berm on the house side of the french drain channel to help slow water movement and let it soak downward to the drain.

That would be optimal. You may not be able to do all that, but it would give you the best chance of long term success.

 

[Willl]

Labor Ready

 

[Qapla]

Just because your BH can't do the job doesn't mean you can't use a hoe. You can rent a mini-excavator on tracks. Just get one with a 9" bucket.

We use a bobcat hoe with a 9" bucket to dig mainline and drainage ditches all the time. (we also have a 12" bucket for when it is needed) They are very maneuverable, dig quite well and have a small footprint.

If your space is real tight, look for one that has "zero clearance" and can turn inside their track space (Yanmar started the trend, but their are other makers with them now)

 

[forgeblast]

I have hand dug lines in pa, lots of rock. Get a digging bar and pick, and go to town. Lol it takes time but a nice work out.

 

[beenthere]

I've got to install 50 feet of 4" perimeter drain to fix a crawl space moisture problem. The house has a brick exterior. The city ran the sewer line to the neighbor's house only 10" from the back wall. So unless I want to relocate that line, the backhoe won't work, and it's starting to look like a shovel job to cut say a 6" by 12" trench for the drain that will be graveled and wrapped in filter fabric.
..........

Then I'll take them out one by one to the trench or dump them one by one into a wheel barrow.

Any other ideas?

That isn't much digging (6" x 12") 50' long. And the wheelbarrow will move the dirt away and a fair amount of gravel back without too many trips. Should take the better part of a day.
Now if it was like the 6' deep water line I hand dug in wet clay alongside the pigpen back in the day, I'd say forget it. Wet clay doesn't come off the shovel, and has to be scraped off with a putty knife. Used two shovels and threw them out of the trench with the stuck clay, scraped them off, threw them back into the trench and climbed back in for two more shovels full. Took more than a day, but was only 35' long.

 

[2manyrocks]

If I need both the perimeter drain and the french drain, then the hand dug perimeter drain needs to get dug first because digging the french drain with the BH will make muddy and miserable working conditions on site.

I don't trust an excavator that close to the house and the sewer line that the city thinks is only a few inches deep.