Almost there with grapple hydraulics...?

[stormpetrel]

My loader valve has a high pressure line from the hydraulic pump going into it. It has a return line which goes into a steel line that heads back to the pto. My tractor is a Yanmar 2210D.....am I wrong about the return going to the pto? Does it in fact return to the tank (transmission)?

When I talked to the people at Koyker about a power beyond sleeve for my loader valve, I was told NOT to "T" the return lines from the two valves together, that this would cause me to lose the pto while operating my grapple.

I was predicating my grapple hydraulics install on the graphic J.J. had very nicely posted. I need to be sure I'm installing stuff correctly BEFORE I complete it and fire the system up.

Here's a photo of the bottom of my loader valve. As you can see from the two large hoses, I only have high pressure from the pump, and a return line....
Also a link to the valve that Surplus center sold me to operate the grapple.https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?catname=&qty=1&item=9-6701

I'm very confused to be told I shouldn't "T" the return lines together.....is this correct? Need help!!!!

 

[kennyd]

If you keep starting different threads you will only get more confused. Keep all the info in one thread please

 

[J_J]

You can tee the return hoses, as long as they are large enough as to not cause high back pressure. Use same size hose as the outlet.

 

[cycle_gator]

Not to disagree with the most knowledgable of the hydraulics group, but I do not think you want to Tee the "return" line. Based on what the guys from Koyker said, it appears to me the return line is acting almost like a power beyond. If I was in your shoes, with that Prince valve in hand to run the grapple, I would put that new valve in series in the return line, not as a Tee. So return line from loader valve goes to inlet on grapple valve, return on grapple valve goes to 3 pt/return line. That way, fluid is always flowing. If the using the loader does not cause issues for the three point, this set up would not either as you are, in essence, simply adding another valve section to the loader valve. This may not work quite as well as if the loader valve had PB as there will be a lessening of flow temporaily when the loader valve is actuated and the return flow is coming back through the opposite work port, but I will bet it will work well enough that you will not regret setting it up this way.
Added as an afterthought. Do, however, as JJ suggested, keep all the lines the same size as what is on the loader valve now.

 

[J_J]

Why do you think you can not tee the return lines. Here is a diagram.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...0053269-new-2-spool-valve-has-rd5000insts.pdf

 

[cycle_gator]

JJ:

I think we are talking past each other here. You certainly can tee into a return line for another return line. But I think what Stormpetrel has in mind is to tee into that line to get pressure to run the grapple valve. i.e, he would end up with a dead end or two tees into the return line, in which case the grapple would never work.

I suspect we are saying the same thing. If I interpret this correctly he is looking for a pressure supply for the new valve to run the grapple. So my solution is to just put the new valve in series in the return line.

 

[Gary Sweat]

Why do you think you can not tee the return lines. Here is a diagram.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/...0053269-new-2-spool-valve-has-rd5000insts.pdf

If the grapple valve has a PB port then you can "T" the grapple valve return into the loader return line. If the grapple valve does not have PB port then the 3pt will raise the grapple valve return port pressure to whatever the 3pt is running at. Which will likely damage the grapple valve.

My loader valve shuts off the 3pt when operated. Don't they all work that way?

 

[cycle_gator]

If it is not damaging the current loader valve, it will not damage the grapple valve either, as they would be in exactly the same position. The grapple valve appears oversize for the task, given the rated flow, so I suspect it would not be in any worse shape than his current loader valve.

It may be better to use PB if it is available, but the folks at Koyker seemed like they really did not want to answer the question about the availability of a PB plug for the loader valve. From the pic it appears that side plug in question is an option for sideport entry (or exit in this case) for the return line without the additional chamber space necessary to create PB within the valve.

And, oh ya, it really is never as simple as it seems, well said!!

 

[J_J]

If the grapple valve has a PB port then you can "T" the grapple valve return into the loader return line. If the grapple valve does not have PB port then the 3pt will raise the grapple valve return port pressure to whatever the 3pt is running at. Which will likely damage the grapple valve.

My loader valve shuts off the 3pt when operated. Don't they all work that way?

If you have 8 GPM's, and are only using 4 GPM's for the cyl, then you have 4 left over for the 3pt. So, no you do not always shut off the 3pt when using the FEL.

 

[Gary Sweat]

If you have 8 GPM's, and are only using 4 GPM's for the cyl, then you have 4 left over for the 3pt. So, no you do not always shut off the 3pt when using the FEL.

Good point! My little pump only puts out 4 gpm so I am probably using it all for the loader. Dang, I need a bigger pump.

 

[cycle_gator]

Don't we all

 

[stormpetrel]

Alright, I'm back. I didn't say Koyker didn't have/wouldn't sell me a power beyond sleeve....they did, it's on the way. What threw me for a loop is being told I shouldn't "T" into the return line by the guy at Koyker when I told him what I wanted to do.

JJ, your diagram and your words make a lot of sense. I'm just gonna go with that. I am interested in knowing whether I'll lose the 3pt hitch when I use the grapple, though. (not that it matters, this is the way I'm going)

SO....I'l be running a high pressure line from the power beyond sleeve on the loader valve, to the in port on the grapple valve. The return line from the grapple valve gets Teed with the other return line. Aside from the working lines, fittings, etc., that's the main part of the work.

Is there anything I'm missing/forgetting?

 

[J_J]

No, that should work if you follow the diagram. As far as losing the 3pt, If the FEL valve uses all the fluid produced, then the 3pt won't work. If you use only half or the fluid for the FEL cyl, then the rest is available for the 3pt.

 

[stormpetrel]

No, that should work if you follow the diagram. As far as losing the 3pt, If the FEL valve uses all the fluid produced, then the 3pt won't work. If you use only half or the fluid for the FEL cyl, then the rest is available for the 3pt.

Will using the grapple divert power from the loader in terms of lifting power?

 

[cycle_gator]

Stormpetrel:

Nope, other way around. The loader gets the juice first, the grapple gets what is left over after the loader takes its share. Unless there is an undue restriction placed down flow from the loader valve, like a smaller line, or a flow restictor, it will have no effect.

 

[J_J]

They willl both have the same pressure which develops force. If you operate both at the same time, and only use half lever on each, The work speed will decrease. Lift cylinders alone will be normal speed, using all the GPM's from the pump. Grapple only will work normal speed.

 

[stormpetrel]

Got the valve, hoses, and fittings today. The valve (surplus center 9-6701) seems awfully heavy. It's rated for 30GPM. Is it too big? I ordered hoses sized to the ports....pretty darn big also. 3/8" for working lines and 3/4" for in/out. I suppose it's easy enough to change 'em if necessary. I was thinking I'd keep the 3/8" and downsize the 3/4" to 1/2". Thoughts?

 

[J_J]

Why such a large valve? 30 GPM, and 3/4 ports. More than what you need. Weighs about 16 lbs

I have a feeling your grapple is going to be way fast. You will need to tune it down.

Does your loader valve have PB? If not, the new valve should be the first valve in series, as it has the capability for PB.

 

[stormpetrel]

Why such a large valve? 30 GPM, and 3/4 ports. More than what you need. Weighs about 16 lbs

I have a feeling your grapple is going to be way fast. You will need to tune it down.

The grapple came with flow reducers.....whatever they're called, to slow it down. There's a shop near me that can make hoses up; I'll have em send me 1/2" & get rid of the 3/4. I also see I'll need a couple more 90 degree fittings to streamline the look. This was all conceptual 'til I saw the parts....now I'm starting to understand what I'm dealing with.

I don't understand why they sold me such a big valve when I told them the use, and low gpm output of the tractor hydraulic pump.

 

[stormpetrel]

Why such a large valve? 30 GPM, and 3/4 ports. More than what you need. Weighs about 16 lbs

I have a feeling your grapple is going to be way fast. You will need to tune it down.

Does your loader valve have PB? If not, the new valve should be the first valve in series, as it has the capability for PB.

Yes, PB sleeve ordered for loader valve....