Alaskan Pipeline Corrosion

[ducati996]

Folk's
After reading this thread I figure I will put my 2 cent's in. I work for a large corporation that is heavily regulated by the government. After working in this environment for about 5 year's now I can honestly say that you and me as consumer's do not want any gov't regulation on anything. Example someone made the point about Mabell and the break up Since that time Japan and other nation's have blown past our communication's network to an all fiber or wireless network. The reason being govt reg. has created a world whereas the larger telco's place all their money into the new technology only to have to lease it to the smaller companies fat or below cost which forces the large telco's not to invest in new technology until recently. This has nothing to do with oil but is the best example I could come up with to show how gov't reg. is not good.

Now as far as the record profit's are concerned I look at it like this, It is the job of every buisness owner/CEO to make sure their company is profitable. If there are record earning's (no matter how high) to be had they better take it because they don't know what will happen tomorrow it just happen's that the oil companies have a product that is in very high demand right now and are getting all the press since oil is something that everyone need's. The only way to fix this is to decrease the demand but, I and a lot more like me don't want to change my lifestyle because of a few extra dollar's a week not to mention all the new homes being constructed that need oil to heat them and the contractor's that need the oil to build them. Also as mentioned by Eddie the gov't makes more off the oil than the oil companies do but, nothing get's said about that. How about the gov't quit's wasting money and using the saving's to reduce the price of oil?

This was not a post meant to bash the gov't or to say the prices are to high but, I just wanted to put my two cent's to hopefully help see this heated topic in a different light.

I totally disagree - and you brought up another hot topic for which Im quite versed in - Telecommunications - get ready to defend your position if you think all the mergers are a good thing for business and consumers - you are so wrong. Now that the FCC rolled over like a cheap cigar (I had another choice word) their job was to evaluate and protect from Monopolies. Guess what the recently merged titans thought of since all the lobbying paid off and they got what they wanted ? net neturalty and how they thought it isnt a good idea - they own the networks and those who use can now pay more, or get services blocked or tiered. and congress couldnt get a bill passed to set up protections - unbelievable because they dont understand technology.

Lets go back to the telecom bill of 1996 that opened up the lines of the local RBocs (Verizon, etc) it created a new competitive market of companies selling bandwidth or IXC circuits and verizon (Nynex at the time) would maintain the last mile. Keep in mind those lines basically paid for long ago and just revenue makers with great margins. They were forced to open the lines at a wholesale rate, so everybody could compete. Years later when Verizon had to prove they were allowing access to their lines, they were allowed to sell long distance (data & POTS) against better judgement and the caving of the FCC, they were allowed to slack off and no longer prove they were allowing competition. Over the years they got more states for LD, and were allowed to raise their wholesale rates. Of course the FCC turned a blind eye, ruined the competitive landscape and allowed the mega mergers with the last one being offerd ATT & SBC and now the last one Bellsouth....

 

[_RaT_]

"The only people objecting to building more refineries are the oil companies"

Would that be the Jimmy Jones KoolAid your drinking?

 

[LMTC]

Well you will think different when the economy goes full boar into a recession and nobody buys your tractors - because they cant afford the diesel or your prices....thats when you will cry....and I will say sorry dude you should have not been in the service industry -

No, I won't. I do not believe governments should run economies, and I particularly do not believe the federal government should be running the economy. In any fashion. My principle beliefs do not change just because the times do.

 

[ducati996]

No, I won't. I do not believe governments should run economies, and I particularly do not believe the federal government should be running the economy. In any fashion. My principle beliefs do not change just because the times do.

Ok Mr. 101 economics professor - if you feel they shouldnt run the economy how come they are allowed to spend our money as they see fit? when they spend dosent that effect the economy? Does the word deficit ring a bell ? does the word outsourcing jobs, NAFTA, and tax breaks for overseas deployment of work mean anything to the economy? checks and balances my friend. I think you were out sick that day in class

 

[_RaT_]

I totally disagree - and you brought up another hot topic for which Im quite versed in - Telecommunications - get ready to defend your position if you think all the mergers are a good thing for business and consumers - you are so wrong. Now that the FCC rolled over like a cheap cigar (I had another choice word) their job was to evaluate and protect from Monopolies. Guess what the recently merged titans thought of since all the lobbying paid off and they got what they wanted ? net neturalty and how they thought it isnt a good idea - they own the networks and those who use can now pay more, or get services blocked or tiered. and congress couldnt get a bill passed to set up protections - unbelievable because they dont understand technology.

Lets go back to the telecom bill of 1996 that opened up the lines of the local RBocs (Verizon, etc) it created a new competitive market of companies selling bandwidth or IXC circuits and verizon (Nynex at the time) would maintain the last mile. Keep in mind those lines basically paid for long ago and just revenue makers with great margins. They were forced to open the lines at a wholesale rate, so everybody could compete. Years later when Verizon had to prove they were allowing access to their lines, they were allowed to sell long distance (data & POTS) against better judgement and the caving of the FCC, they were allowed to slack off and no longer prove they were allowing competition. Over the years they got more states for LD, and were allowed to raise their wholesale rates. Of course the FCC turned a blind eye, ruined the competitive landscape and allowed the mega mergers with the last one being offerd ATT & SBC and now the last one Bellsouth....

Not exactly sure what your saying here Ducati, suffice it to say, I wait for the day that SBC now known as AT&T brings service to me. They are $10 a month cheaper then my local and independent telecom company and offer name tags with caller ID. A simple thing but important to me.

 

[MossRoad]

Good discussion going here, but everyone, please, refrain from trading the insults. Thanks.

 

[dieselsmoke1]

"Exxon Mobil reports quarterly profits of more than $10.3 billion, the second-best quarter ever for a U.S. company. Exxon Mobil's mark is topped only by the company's own record, which it set late last year. Recently, BP and Royal Dutch Shell both reported profits of more than $7 billion."

As I previously stated regarding maintenance, redundancy and contengiency plans, jack the price of gas a few pennies and pay for it if deemed neccessary. Don't just sit there a fat and happy buffoon while a resource that is critical to our country's economy fails due to inept maintenance and poor planning. Where do you guess the 8% shortfall will come from?

On second thought, maybe it was good planning depending on your point of view. I have a little enery stock and will probably make money from this, but I just get hung up on the principles.

I don't begrudge Big Oil for making money, who doesn't like to make money. Record profits while the average guy using the product is reeling is a bit much though.

My personal beef is that IMO most Big Oil Co.s are sorry *** corporate citizens that sit around waiting for the next blip so they can dance around and ring the cash register.

 

[WhyNot]

Not really sure why I'm responding but here it goes any way
1. Net neutrality: Is a good thing don't disagree with you there the consumer pay's $35-$50 a month for a pipe should not matter what is stuffed into that pipe.
2. Lines paid for a long time ago: Your point? When you are in business you want to pay down your over head, just because they are paid for it doesn't mean your competitor's should be allowed to come get fat off of your investment.
3. Ruined the competitive landscape: During the week I work on special ckt's and about 95% are for clec's or AT&T and if asked in on the weekend's I do res. pot's. More and more the maint. job's are for clec's or reseller's but, after 3 or 4 maint visit's from the LEC trying to get us to fix their CPE and getting billed because the clec or reseller did not tell them they don't support what they sell, they soon realize that contract they signed to save a few buck's was not worth it. That is not the FCC's or Rboc's fault is it?
4. Back on topic: You did not argue any of the buisness point's I made So do you agree? If so are oil companies not business's?

 

[livincountry]

I think the bottom line to this and why people are in an uproar: Buying gasoline or diesel is not an option it's a necessity for everyday life.

Taxes are not options, the ~ $0.46 tax per gallon has been roughly the same over years...not fluctuating wildly day to day. That is why noone is complaining about the tax portion of gas prices.

Who knows how much the retailer makes on gas. Yesterday I found gas to be from $2.58 all the way to $2.99 per gallon depending on where I was in town. Earlier in the week they were all closer to $2.89. We have a lot of Speedways and these stations post gas prices based on who knows because they aren't consistant from location to location. I can go to Kmart and expect to pay the same for a widget at each store. Why not for fuel?

 

[scesnick]

I'm not doubting you but can you point me to that news on the web? I searched and couldn't find it. That is HUGE and hasn't made the news that I've heard. I used to own a couple rigs and when diesel was $1.46 on average for a 12 month period I was just getting by and that was a few years ago. I know the surcharges have gone up but yikes I'm glad those rigs are out of my life.
.

I know this because my father drives for Schnieder National. You will see more and more of this the higher the price goes. I may not have come out in the press as of yet. There is quite a bit of planning that needs to be done when a company of this size decides to shut down for one day.

As Livincountry says, when fuel was only $1.46 he was just getting buy as an independant driver. I have no idea how the independant owner/operators are able to do it at $3.10 a gallon now. There is one big word here that no one is bringing up and that word is GOUGHING !!!

BTW, Yes, I have changed my lifestyle already. I now drive a Chevy metro to work ( 40+ MPG) I no longer use fuel oil. I bought a wood/coal boiler to heat my home and domestic hot water.
Sure, I would love to drive to work everyday in the comfort of my 2005 Dodge diesel but I am doing my part to conserve fuel.

LTMC,
Mark my words, there will come a day when you will say "Oh Sh*T, where are those tractors I ordered?" And they will be sitting on some semi truck at the truck depot with the trucks tanks empty because the driver/owner can not afford to start the truck.
maybe then you will wake up and see there is just a sllight problem with the way this fuel situation is going.
But, hey, maybe if you call Lee Raymond he will send you a few gallons (for a large price of course) and you can get your last shipment of tractors before your doors close for good.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

There is no price at which I believe any government entity should intervene.

Well you will think different when the economy goes full boar into a recession and nobody buys your tractors - because they cant afford the diesel or your prices....

Well if I understand economics at all, if we get to a point that nobody is buying fuel, then the supply will greatly exceed the demand. When the supply exceeds the demand by a large margin on any good, the price tends to dramatically fall.

But I will tend to agree with Wayne that there is no price at which I believe government should intervene and 'set' prices. You are either a principled person or you are not. In my dealings with Wayne, I believe he is a principled person.

1. If what the oil companies are making now is too much, what's the right amount of profit?

2. Who will set this amount?

3. How will it be enforced?

4. How will it lower fuel prices?

Mike, pick me pick me pick me!!!
I will determine when they make to much, but please don't limit me to just the oil companies. Let me determine when a plumber is gouging people by upcharging too much for a part. And have you thought about Diamonds? Heck for a piece of polished rock you can get set back $5000 or $10,000 pretty easily. I think those are over priced. Let me set the margins for jewelry stores. And what about grocery stores charging 25-cents an ear for sweet corn when the roadside stand sells them 12 ears for $2. For crying out loud how long can we put up with the over charging and huge profits the supermarkets make?

. . .

A wise man told me this, I present it here in this thread, not directed to anyone in particular, but directed to everyone so that we may all consider them an learn that we should not turn to government to provide us with things because when we do, we realize our own destruction:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

--Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic
​

 

[_RaT_]

Bob, I was looking for the big thumbs up icon but could not find it so here "a big thumbs up too you". Nail, head, you hit'em both.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Bob . . . Nail, head, you hit'em both.

Yea, I've been told that I've been hit on the head more than once. Apparently I might have been dropped on my head as a kid too

 

[Volfandt]

Interesting thread. A good topic that needn't be mired in emotionalism.

We've lived off the teet of cheap oil for far too long. Like an alcoholic or drug addict we've become dependant and think we can't ween ourselves from it.
We can and should.... But our enconomy will have to change too, back to where it was perhaps with a more localized infrastructure .

Like some have already stated, we don't need the fed gov to step in and run the oil industry. The fed gov DOES need to insure that no existing laws are being broken.
Equipment breaks down all the time. Equipment needs to be shutdown for scheduled maintenance also. There is poor planning in that there is no redundancy on the pipeline, the question should be why isn't there?

Why are oil & natural gas wells standing idle in Texas and TN? Why are there no more refineries between our borders?
Why are we still driving fuel inefficient automobiles?
Why are most of our leisure & pleasure machines fuel inefficient?

You know goods will still get delivered to places that still have rail and waterway access.....
And perhaps local manufacturing plants will reopen when it is no longer cheaper to make it on the other side of the world and ship it here.....

So are we being gouged by the oil Co's? I've read somewhere that the state & fed gov make more off of a gal of gas than anyone else in the chain....

Hummmm, perhaps the fed IS running it.....

Volfandt

 

[dieselsmoke1]

Perhaps we could bring this thread back to the original topic, Alaskan Pipeline Corrosion.

Forget about the record profits for a minute, all that does for me is prove that there were more than adequate resources available for PM or repairs or redundant equipment or whatever.

I have a hard time believing this "unexpected failure" caught many at BP by surprise. It's a succssful major company, must be some intelligent folks in the pile. I'd expect this condition has been known and discussed for many years now. Nope, IMO the more I learn the more this looks like a goal oriented orchestrated event.

 

[bugstruck]

Hummmm, perhaps the fed IS running it.....

Volfandt

They lease most of the US land and water the oil companies pull it from. Tax at the pump and every stage before that. So yeah, it's a government windfall. You had some good points. We had an opportunity to mitigate our dependancy in the 70's and 80's and missed it. The alternatives never were seriously pursued. Not in the government's or oil company's better interest at the time. Now we get into a contest of who is right and who is wrong. Well I know who is wrong. We are as a County for not addressing this problem and doing something serious and constructive some time ago. Now the DOE has favorable opinions on the possibility of extracting crude from oil shale under Colorado, Wyoming, and Utah as I recall. The technology is coming and the reserves are incredible in that area. Water availability for extraction requirements is a problem for that as is environmental. But I bet they get past all that eventually as the alternative, when the US wells run dry, is the government and oil companies will loose some of their grip on this steady stream of $. It's a symbiotic relationship both very much benefit from. The government didn't just open more production areas in the gulf cause they think we are paying too much at the pumps. If overdseas supply concerns weren't part of this mix, with the potential disruptions and tax implications to the economy, they'd still be asleep on this IMO. Keep in mind the US government is still us. Oil companies are doing what businesses do, maximizing profits. We like that virtually all the time. Just not when it crimps us personally. Time to roll up our sleves and get on with the solution. Bashing the government or big oil isn't going to solve it. But if the government knows we know by voicing our concerns they will let the alternative fuels live this time. If we loose interest and oil goes to $40.00 a barrel, we should save a link to this thread and save our fingers for the next one. It will all have already been said as it already was.

 

[WhyNot]

Perhaps we could bring this thread back to the original topic, Alaskan Pipeline Corrosion.

Forget about the record profits for a minute, all that does for me is prove that there were more than adequate resources available for PM or repairs or redundant equipment or whatever.

I have a hard time believing this "unexpected failure" caught many at BP by surprise. It's a succssful major company, must be some intelligent folks in the pile. I'd expect this condition has been known and discussed for many years now. Nope, IMO the more I learn the more this looks like a goal oriented orchestrated event.

It seem's as though the only energy companies that do pm's any more are Nuclear and that is because their facilities are overseen by the NRC. I am no CFO so I don't know but there must be a bigger tax right off for pipeline replacement than for doing PM's. Surely it is cheaper to run a pig down the line every couple month's and keep it clean to prevent corrosion than it is to replace the pipe line. Think of the amount of $ it is costing BP an hour with that pipeline shut down and the money needed to replace it more than likely more than I make in a year.

 

[DavesTractor]

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

--Lord Alexander Tytler on the fall of the Athenian republic

​

​

Well said. I've been aware of that quote for some time, and it is worrisome in it's truth.

 

[ducati996]

Not exactly sure what your saying here Ducati, suffice it to say, I wait for the day that SBC now known as AT&T brings service to me. They are $10 a month cheaper then my local and independent telecom company and offer name tags with caller ID. A simple thing but important to me.

How long do you think that will be when they they merge? Its a funny thing when you look around and see you no longer have choice and the provider has no competition. Dont think for a second your rates wont go up shortly afterwards. Nobody to stop them, and you no longer have a choice. If you say Voip, you will see sudden a dedegration of service, lost calls or unable to connect to certain areas. They will be blocking ports, IPs, etc for Voip providers, to stiffle competiton and force them to raise pay more for service and raise your rates if you have the service. This is prophecy my friend and it will happen soon enough....

 

[ducati996]

Well if I understand economics at all, if we get to a point that nobody is buying fuel, then the supply will greatly exceed the demand. When the supply exceeds the demand by a large margin on any good, the price tends to dramatically fall.

But I will tend to agree with Wayne that there is no price at which I believe government should intervene and 'set' prices. You are either a principled person or you are not. In my dealings with Wayne, I believe he is a principled person.


Mike, pick me pick me pick me!!!
I will determine when they make to much, but please don't limit me to just the oil companies. Let me determine when a plumber is gouging people by upcharging too much for a part. And have you thought about Diamonds? Heck for a piece of polished rock you can get set back $5000 or $10,000 pretty easily. I think those are over priced. Let me set the margins for jewelry stores. And what about grocery stores charging 25-cents an ear for sweet corn when the roadside stand sells them 12 ears for $2. For crying out loud how long can we put up with the over charging and huge profits the supermarkets make?

. . .
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[/INDENT]

Bob,

Since your ideal is ok but not realistic at all. Its kind of utopian and probably has a different color sky then the rest of us. Im glad you feel Wayne and your self feel you are principaled. Thats just great but the majority of the corporations who have to re-state their earnings, or are caught in one felony or another, or another superintendeant or another school district is taking pay-offs and the list goes on. Folks can not be trusted when placed in corruptable positions. This example has been repeated time and time again.
The oil companies are in that position and they need to be held accountable.

Comparing a plumber, or a diamond mechant to a required energy source to fuel your car, home, or office is just a poor example and isnt even considered remotely related....put it this way gas and oil is almost as important as food and water. Diamonds you dont need, and neither are plumbers if you can do it yourself