Advice would be appreciated

[Seven_U_Bar]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

(I apologize in advance for the long post.)

I am beginning in the ranching business in south Texas by taking over the family place--actually a pretty small operation--360 acres (243 and 117 non-contiguous about 4 miles apart) of largely unimproved land, almost exclusively sandy clay mix, mostly flat coastal plain with quite a bit of erosion broken down as follows: about 100 acres of open field divided up into fields of 25, 20, 18, 25, 20, 5, and 7 acres each; and the rest consisting of oak trees, motts, and various broken brush stands. I have about 7 miles of perimeter and 3 miles of cross fence (5 strand barbed wire) to maintain. In the past, we have had about 60 acres of the fields in improved grasses--coastal burmuda mostly, for grazing and hay. I have an older (1970's gas 45 HP) John Deere and a few rusty implements, however, I am almost certainly going to buy a new diesel--probably a Kubota, and my initial thinking is in the M series 50-90 HP range with FEL and possibley other implements. You can probably imagine the range of work I want to perform: augering for fence posts, transporting round bales, disking to plant winter oats for grazing, etc. I doubt whether I will get into doing square or round bales, but who knows. And I might want to spread my own fertilizer (again, for hay--I will almost certainly not get involved with row cropping of any kind.)

But I have two other problems with which many of you may be unfamiliar: first, we have a huge infestation of feral hogs which dig for roots and grubs and generally wallow from time to time in seemingly random places. Forget control. Second, I have mesquite infestations in some of the formerly improved fields. Needless to say no professionals with any sense will risk their machinery fertilizing or baling hay. so brush control and filling in hog holes (and flattening fire ant mounds periodically, is essential. I have considered a tree shear, but may pass on that and use a chain saw with all it's limitations on the mesquite (mostly clumps of 5-20 small "trees" from 2 inches to 6 inches thick.) All my friends tell me a front end loader is absolutely essential. This is hard for me to wrap my mind around because my grandfather ranched 3,600 acres and probably didn't know what one was.

Here are my main questions:

(1) How useful is the FEL for brush control? Can I, for example, clear most of my brushed up fence lines with the FEL and occasional cutting of larger trees at ground level with a chain saw? Would the FEL alone be adequate for filling in hog holes about a foot to 1 1/2 feet deep by pushing the mounded up soil into the hole? Or would I also do better with a back blade or box blade for that purpose?

(2) For cost-savings, I would prefer the 50 HP rather than the 90. Opinions? (OK--I know you guys are enthusiasts and likely to advise me to buy the best!--but please take my operation into account.)

Thanks so much if you have stayed with me so far and I am looking forward to participating on this board although it seems more oriented to farming than ranching.

Russ Roberts
Austin, Texas

 

[Bird]

Russ, I agree with your friends; a front end loader is essential, and I'd strongly recommend a toothbar for it for the work you mentioned. For several years, I worked with a good friend and neighbor rancher, working his cattle, cutting, baling, and moving hay, etc. He had 3 tractors when I first met him; none with a front end loader. Then shortly after I bought just a very small Kubota with a front end loader, he bought a bigger tractor with one. Very shortly thereafter, he told me he just didn't know how he had managed so many years without a front end loader; that he'd have bought one years ago if he'd known how handy it was. And yes, we had plenty of experience with the feral hogs and fire ants. While you can repair their damage with just the front end loader, I'd recommend getting a box blade also.

IF you get into hay baling, then I'd recommend you start with a tractor of about 85 hp, although a minimum of 50 hp might do the job. But if you're sure you won't get into hay baling, then I see no reason a 50 hp tractor wouldn't be just fine.

That mesquite is a real nuisance, but once the bigger stuff is cut down and disposed of, you can control it pretty well just by mowing with a brush hog a couple of times a year. Naturally, the bigger the tractor, the bigger mower you can use, and the quicker you'll get the jobs done.

 

[Seven_U_Bar]

Thanks for the feedback, Bird. I probably will NOT end up doing hay, but being a complete novice, and being close to retirement, I would hate to get down the road and wish I had bought more tractor. Another question I should have posed (to which I think I know the answer but would like other views) has to do with 4WD versus 2WD. For my purposes, I would suspect that the major thing 4WD would buy me would the superior power when filling the bucket with earth for hog hole and other erosion control, such as filling in on a tank dam where the overflow is starting to eat back into the dam. I have seven stock tanks and just had two of them repaired and lo and behold they are starting to eat back in again. I know the FEL is not a dozer, still, if I catch it in time, I might be able to fix problems like that, and I suspect 4WD will give me more purchase for that, as well as for pushing up small brush.

How would you clear a fence line for putting in new posts with a FEL? Just put it on the ground and push like ****?

Russ

 

[Bird]

Russ, the 4WD will do several things for you:
1) I think you'll find it's the equivalent of approximately 25% more horsepower,
2) A heavy load in a front end loader can make the back end of the tractor so light you can't get any traction and can't go without putting it in 4WD,
3) Tractors only have brakes on the rear wheels so if the the rear wheels don't have traction, you have no brakes, but if the tractor is in 4WD, applying the brakes to the rear wheels also brakes the front ones.

Now for my personal opinion, in your situation, I wouldn't even be considering tractors without 4WD unless maybe you're looking at 85-100 hp tractors. Of course you're right about 4WD giving you more purchase in the situations you described.

As for clearing a fence line . . . it just depends on what you have to clear (trees, brush, rocks, dirt?), the size of what you have to clear, the type of soil, moisture content of soil. It's an impossible question for me to answer without actually seeing (and maybe even attempting to do) the job. I've quite easily uprooted 4" oak trees with just the front end loader on a 27 hp tractor in the right kind of soil, and I've also seen some 2" trees I couldn't even budge with that same tractor. And in one case at least, I'm talking about 2" trees that were no more than 50' from the 4" trees I just removed.

 

[MMM]

50hp ian't enough to take on the pastures you described. I'd look for (alot) closer to the 90hp to pull 15'flex wing to keep trash cut out of pasture, pull a renovator, good sized disc, etc. You'll be awhile with 6-8' equipment.
50hp is generally a lower limit of tractor size for regular handling of round bales. Sure, you can get smaller round bales, but they cost same(delivered) for less hay.
I'd try to get mesquite up by roots as they resprout when cut. You can keep cedar back by infrequent clipping, but the mesuite will be never ending battle.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I started off with a mere 88 acres, some 30 years ago. (I've recently added 45 more) I bought a67 HP and a 42 HP tractor to get the ball rolling. The 42 HP tractor was equipped with a loader (Light-weight "manure loader") The place I bought hadn't been actively farmed for 20+ years when I got it. There was much to do. Mow saplings growing in the pastures, clean fence-rows, build a road to where we later would build a house, and dam up a pond.

The 67 HP (5000 Ford) wasn't quite enough for some of the chores I encountered. The 3000 Ford is still with me, but it's tired. I later sold the 5000 and bought a 60 HP Deere (2440) The 3000 (and it's flimsy loader) got some help a few years later, in the form of a Massey 150 I still have. It has a slightly better loader than what used to grace the 3000 Ford.

OK, Where am I going with this?

In retrospect, I wish I'd have bought a GOOD loader for the 2440 Deere, then traded the 3000, along with cash spent on the Massey, and bought something in the 75 to 90 HP range.

It's difficult (at best) to farm any substantial amount of ground with ONE tractor. I wouldn't dream of being without some sort of loader. It's inconvenient to use a loader tractor for some chores, and with a busy schedule, I don't want to even consider taking a loader off, and putting it back on a tractor every time I need it, no matter how simple todays "quick-attach" loaders are.

But, I also understand the "start-up" cost involved with a farm. I gather you don't want the expense of buying TWO tractors at this point. (I'd plan on adding #2 at some point though) So, I'd guess you want ONE tractor that would do all your required chores for now.

To some degree, you can do smaller chores with a bigger tractor, but a small tractor is at a real disadvantage when tackling big jobs. Going too small in order to save a few bucks will come back to haunt you later.

From your description, MOST of your work is "utility work". (Fence building, grading, mowing, ect) That can be done with a 45 to 50 HP tractor without too much strain on it. (Although bigger also spells EASIER for some of that) Hay work can be done with a "smaller" (45 to 50 HP) tractor, but that's marginal power. There are plenty of decent balers, disc mowers, and other hay equipment on the market that will operate with a 50 HP tractor. But again, that's MARGINAL POWER. I've been "getting by" with 60 HP for years.

After all this rambling on, I'm going to suggest that you look at 75 HP as a minimum. And DEFINATELY get a GOOD loader. I can't imagine running a farm without one. Then look (at some future date) adding a second tractor. Something in the 40 to 50 HP range will compliment your bigger one quite nicely. (As you mentioned, your ground is in two parcels. A second tractor will allow you to leave one at each place when the need calls for that, and believe me, it will)

 

[Seven_U_Bar]

Bird, MMM, and Junk:

Wow! Thanks for all the input--I really have found the right forum. I hate computers (having worked with them all my life, but the internet is gold.) I also weighed in on the Kubota thread and have some good advice there as well.

Bird: Understood on soil conditions etc. affecting clearing--there are, thankfully, no rocks whatsoever--just sand/clay mix. It can be very loose when wet, and like your concrete patio during a dry Texas summer. As to brush, think 2-4 inch "boles" to the trees, thick little evergreen bushes/small trees called youpon, interspersed with thick thorny vines and overhanging tree branches. Yechhh. As to the 4WD info, I had thought some of that might be the case, but had not thought about the braking aspects.

MMM: Understand what you and FarmwithJunk are saying about more HP being better. Actually, the 4WD Kubota M9000 with FEL costs about $34,000.00 compared with about $26,000.00 for the same setup on the M4900. So it is "only" about $8,000.00 more and I know you are correct.

Junk: You are correct that virtually all of my chores are utility in nature. I will almost certainly never do any true "farming" What discing I do will be to condition the soil for grass sprigging, and planting winter oats or rye for the cattle to graze. If I produce hay, I would like to fertilize it rather than pay someone as my Mom has in the past. However, when it comes to haying (we make pretty big round bales,) I will almost certainly leave that to the pros, and if the overall charge is too much, I'll buy the stuff, but with 70 plus head of cattle which I would like to increase to 100 or so, I would of course, like to save the money.

What MMM and others are saying about time in the field is true--aLthough I will soon be retired, I will be living about 100 miles away from the "ranch" and it would be good to maximize the time I spend there. I have a house on the place but my CFO is a city girl from New York and likes Austin a whole lot better.

Now here is the kicker: I already have one tractor: the bad news is that it is an early seventies GAS John Deere (don't ask me the model number, but it has 3 cylinders and about 45 horsepower, and is, of course, 2WD, and has 16.5X29 rear tires. It works, but everyone discourages me from relying on it for much of anything. I am going to have it picked up and checked over, but it sounds like it's hardly worth putting any money into.

Thanks again for any and all advice.

Russ

 

[ptfarmermd]

Seven_U_Bar,

Let me add my $.02 worth. I agree with the sound advice Bird, MMM, and Farmwithjunk have given you. Very good solid advice.
I am in a similar situation to you. I live in the Western part of Maryland, a couple of hours from DC, but it is still mostly farm land and rural. I took over my grandparents 70 acre farm a few years ago. I had worked it for years, but did not run it. I also received the equipment which went with the farm.
I do not have mesquite trees to contend with, but I do have scrub trees and a lot of multiflora rose to keep under control, along with stinging nettles, thistles and other weeds.
I grew up using a 1949 gas tractor without FWD or an FEL. To remove manure from the barn, we attached a hydraulic manure fork to it. This takes 2.5 hours to put on or take off.
I purchased a new 35 HP compact tractor last year with FWD and an FEL. I do not know how I got along so long without a tractor with an FEL and FWD. An hour of work now on the farm feels very productive, instead of like I am spinning my wheels.
You will find so many uses for a FEL, you will not believe it. I use mine to clean manure out of the barn, push over scrub trees and large multiflora rose bushes, move tree limbs, push snow, and many other small jobs.
My advice is if you get a smaller HP tractor, get FWD. You may need it for the larger HP tractors, but not necessarily. No matter which HP tractor you buy, get a FEL for it. You will not be sorry and will keep finding uses for it. You will not know how you got along without one.

 

[redlevel]

Russ,

Maybe you can't completely control those hogs, but you can put enough pressure on them to "change their zip code". We have that problem off and on. The key is to be ruthless; if you see a sow with pigs, shoot the sow first, then take care of the confused pigs. My brother and another man killed a sow, a 200 lb. boar, and about 15 pigs in a 10 acre field a few years back. An adjoining neighbor had pen-traps where he would capture anywhere from 6 to 15 hogs of various sizes. He shoots them in the pen, distributes as much meat as he can, and buries the rest with his loader. My nephew shot two boars from his deer stand last week. It sounds heartless, but these beasts can do thousands of dollars of damage to a pasture overnight. We have greatly diminished our problem over a period of 5 or 6 years.

As for the tractor--whether you buy your hay or make it yourself, you want to have as large round bales as you can find. I had a Kubota M 6800 4wd, and it just wasn't heavy enough to safely and comfortably handle a 1000 lb bale on the loader and 3ph, even with front and rear tires loaded. If the ground is perfectly level, maybe, but throw in even some slightly rolling ground, and you can have some adventures. My NH 6640 2wd handles them fine. I'm not sure, but I think the Kub was rated about 72hp, and the NH is rated at 76hp, but the NH is a much heavier machine. As someone else stated, you also want to be able to handle as large a bush hog as possible, too. I would advise you to go with 90hp for your new tractor purchase, and yes, get the FEL.

If you could get that old JD running reliably for even 2 to 3 thousand dollars, it would give you a "backup" tractor that I guarantee you will find plenty of use for. If you are lucky, it won't cost nearly that much.

I think I have read in some of UGA's extension material that you need at least 100 head to justify owning hay equipment. If you can buy 1000lb bales of good bermudagrass hay for $30.00, you are better off. The trick is to start buying it in June: don't wait until November when everybody is buying.

I don't know much about mesquite, but we have privet and chinaberry, and once you get the big stuff down, you can keep it in check with the mower and chemicals. An ATV or tractor mounted spot-sprayer will help a lot.

Have fun, and good luck!

 

[Seven_U_Bar]

PTFARMERMD: Thanks. The advice is much appreciated. We do have similar situations, with the exception of manure removal--if Texas cattle (at least the ones my family has owned) ever saw a barn they would have heart attacks and drop dead on the spot! Down here, we use barns for our poorer relatives to spend the night in.

REDLEVEL: You are so right about the hogs and don't worry, I have no compunctions about harming the poor little piggies. My 80-year-old mother lives on the ranch and has a beautiful 2 acre St. Augustine lawn right on the farm-to-market road. They have literally dug up her yard! Interestingly, my great great grandfather and his children were the first to let hogs run free on mast back in the 1850's. In my lifetime of some 60 years, you never saw hide, hair, nor sign of one in our south Texas county until about 7 years ago--when they just flat out erupted in numbers. I have no idea what caused it, and as a hunter I love it--but no way to keep the numbers down with just hunting. When I retire in a couple of years I could use traps, but then my wife would probably give them names and be feeding them carrots before I could shoot them.

I called the John Deere dealer and asked him to pick the unit up (turns out it is a JD 1020 (39 HP) and I could probably put a loader on it.

Thanks again all, and hope the cold ain't killing ya'll. I know you are all to the north of me since there is very little country to the south (most of it is the King Ranch), and it was 20 down here night before last.

Russ

Russ