Advice on electrical/water underground

[tungularafishcamp]

Hi Folks,
As you all know one thing leads to 10 others. When I had to dig up 50' of my 24volt electical line to find the short in a splice I figured I might as well dig all of it up and bury it again in put inside some free 4" pvc pipe I salvaged. While I have it all dug up I am replacing my water that runs in the same ditch with some 3/4 pex. Question is should I put the pex inside the 4" with the elec. or just bury it on it's own as it might cause condensation in the 4" pvc. My elec. is 1/2"aluminum wire which I got 20 yrs out of before a splice gave way. As I am not a plumber/electrician/ditch digger/builder I would appreciate any input.

Thanks,
Rick

 

[kenmac]

Hi Folks,
Question is should I put the pex inside the 4" with the elec. or just bury it on it's own as it might causeThanks,
Rick

Here, were not allowed to run water in the same ditch as electrical.I sure wouldn't put it in the same condiut

 

[whistlepig]

Codes are different for different places. Some will allow electric and water in the same ditch and some won't. I have done the electric and water in the same ditch. The water line was plastic. The wire was aluminum. The conduit was sand. The ditch was a $500.00 back hoe run. It wasn't worth an additional $500.00 to me for an extra ditch to separate the electric from the water line. This worked for the 25 years before we moved.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I certainly don't see anything wrong with burying it in the same ditch, but I would not put the water in the conduit with the electric. Good luck.

 

[whistlepig]

My father-in-law was a contractor in Ohio and dealt with codes all the time. The city that had the strictest codes of all that he dealt with would allow water and electric in the same ditch. Use your own judgement. Were we live now if a building is to be used for agricultural no permit of any kind is required. I wouldn't hesitate to do the water and electric in the same ditch with sand as the conduit if I had to do it over again.

 

[tungularafishcamp]

I got 20 years before the splice leaked in the wire and failed, but if it goes another 20 I have to dig it up in my mid 70's so I am hoping to get enuff time I wont have to dig it up. I am putting in an access point at the splice which just happens to be where I am putting in a 3rd greenhouse next summer and will T the water line off there.

:laughing:I have the luxury out here of asking what is a code? Truthfully I never even considered digging a seperate ditch for the water, although with having the bh it is not like the old days of hand digging.

I am leaning towards not putting the pex water line in the conduit with the wire mainly because of condensation, are there other reasons that it might cause a problem that I am not aware of?
Thanks Guys!
Rick

 

[whistlepig]

If its underground and it rains a lot it is going to get wet. The sand protects the water line and electric line from sharp rocks when the ground heaves. Also, if you ever have to dig it up, you know when you hit sand its time to stop the back hoe and get out the shovel. I think some reason that if the electric wire gets nicked and is in the same ditch as the water line the water line will become hot. Most of the better water lines are made of plastic now.

 

[Lineman North Florida]

I got 20 years before the splice leaked in the wire and failed, but if it goes another 20 I have to dig it up in my mid 70's so I am hoping to get enuff time I wont have to dig it up. I am putting in an access point at the splice which just happens to be where I am putting in a 3rd greenhouse next summer and will T the water line off there.

:laughing:I have the luxury out here of asking what is a code? Truthfully I never even considered digging a seperate ditch for the water, although with having the bh it is not like the old days of hand digging.

I am leaning towards not putting the pex water line in the conduit with the wire mainly because of condensation, are there other reasons that it might cause a problem that I am not aware of?
Thanks Guys!
Rick[/QU[ If your pex pipe ever does leak it's gonna fill up your conduit and run water out of both ends, one being your breaker panel in your house or barn, that would not be good.

 

[tungularafishcamp]

I got 20 years before the splice leaked in the wire and failed, but if it goes another 20 I have to dig it up in my mid 70's so I am hoping to get enuff time I wont have to dig it up. I am putting in an access point at the splice which just happens to be where I am putting in a 3rd greenhouse next summer and will T the water line off there.

:laughing:I have the luxury out here of asking what is a code? Truthfully I never even considered digging a seperate ditch for the water, although with having the bh it is not like the old days of hand digging.

I am leaning towards not putting the pex water line in the conduit with the wire mainly because of condensation, are there other reasons that it might cause a problem that I am not aware of?
Thanks Guys!
Rick[/QU[ If your pex pipe ever does leak it's gonna fill up your conduit and run water out of both ends, one being your breaker panel in your house or barn, that would not be good.

Now if I could just time the leak for the 4th of July we might have some nice fireworks:laughing:

finished the ditch yesterday before the weather hit and put the pex and backfilled enuff to hold the pex down, will put in the pipe and wire whenever it stops raining. Thanks for the advice!

Rick

 

[Lineman North Florida]

Sounds like you have got it under control Rick, good luck with the remainder of your project. If you don't mind though I am curious why you went with Pex instead of PVC, I don't know anything about Pex so I was wondering if it had some advantages.:thumbsup:

 

[tungularafishcamp]

This is the first time with pex for me. I ordered a bunch of it for heated beds and the water system in the greenhouses. I liked the fact that it won't burst when froze in case I miss blowing some of the water out in the fall. I like the fittings,just crimp no gluing, ez and cheap to do although the pipe is kind of a pain to handle, a little stiff and hard to unroll.

I guess you don't need to worry about your pipes freezing

Rick

 

[Lineman North Florida]

This is the first time with pex for me. I ordered a bunch of it for heated beds and the water system in the greenhouses. I liked the fact that it won't burst when froze in case I miss blowing some of the water out in the fall. I like the fittings,just crimp no gluing, ez and cheap to do although the pipe is kind of a pain to handle, a little stiff and hard to unroll.

I guess you don't need to worry about your pipes freezing

Rick

Believe it or not it has gotten down as low as 8 degrees here before but in the winter it's usually more in the high 20's to low 30's when we have a coldfront come down, but nothing like what your accustomed to I'm sure, all I have to do to keep pipes from busting is drip a spiquot.

 

[bearhawk]

I didn't think the PEX was ok to bury by itself. I used the Black PVC well tubing when I put in the yard faucet.

 

[lockhaven]

if you have the free pipe do one ditch and run both in their own free pvc, I would still put sand around the pvc. But of course where you are it might not freeze and thaw just stay froze.

 

[lockhaven]

Here, were not allowed to run water in the same ditch as electrical.I sure wouldn't put it in the same condiut

how do you handle your well?

 

[CurlyDave]

...I am leaning towards not putting the pex water line in the conduit with the wire mainly because of condensation, are there other reasons that it might cause a problem that I am not aware of?
Thanks Guys!
Rick

Do not put the pex inside the conduit. In addition to the potential electrical issues, every time you turn the water off or on, the pex will flex slightly inside the conduit and will wear against it.

It is far more common to burry PVC pipe directly in the ground rather than pex. The cost is not that much different. Although it does appear that pex is rated for direct burial in sand.

For underground plastic pipe installations, the criteria for sizing the pipe is not reducing the pressure drop through the pipe. The real criteria is to keep water flow velocity lower than 7 feet/second, in order to prevent erosion of the plastic pipe by solid particles carried by the water. For a typical domestic supply this means 1 1/4" pvc pipe.

 

[tungularafishcamp]

I went with the pex cause it was rated for underground so I could do the heated beds with the half inch. I got the three quarters for supply lines to it and got a good deal on it so I got extra for just in case. I already have a one inch pvc supply line that is in good shape that I dug up with the wire and could reuse it but being 20 yrs old and already up thought might as well replace it. I have a bit under 50 psi so thought the 3/4 line would be fine for supply. Should I be lookin for a larger line?

Good point about the water hammer Dave, I do have plenty of the larger pvc for conduit so I could run double but maybe I am better off putting the pex straight in the ground cause of the water hammer. Once I get thru the beach grass n a little dirt(5 inches total) all I have down in the ditch is fine gravel/course sand as deep as I want to go so it makes a nice bed.

I get my water from a spring up on the hill and it is just gravity feed so no well and associated headaches. Everything will be down @ 5' except for the heated beds but will blow them out before things get too cold.

THANKS for the help guys

 

[mmurphy]

I would put it all together. 24 volt system is not going to give you a shock, it takes at least 50 volts to penetrate your skin. I would also say you probably have fairly low water pressure running off of a stream.

How far is the drop from the stream to point of use?

2.31 feet of head to make 1 psi. or .433 psi to a foot.

 

[tommu56]

I didn't think the PEX was ok to bury by itself. I used the Black PVC well tubing when I put in the yard faucet.

The black well pipe that i am familiar with isn't pvc it is polyethylene pipe.
That is what I recommend for under ground if it does freeze it wont burst like pvc.

On a side note although not code I have used it for conduit to put wires in it.

On the splices are you using the shrink tube with the mung in therm? they are water proof if done correctly they are the same tubeing that are in well pump splice kits.

 

[tungularafishcamp]

The black well pipe that i am familiar with isn't pvc it is polyethylene pipe.
That is what I recommend for under ground if it does freeze it wont burst like pvc.

On a side note although not code I have used it for conduit to put wires in it.

On the splices are you using the shrink tube with the mung in therm? they are water proof if done correctly they are the same tubeing that are in well pump splice kits.

That is what I have used before is the polyethylene and also use it for conduit, in fact I was gonna use some of the old stuff to put the cable to the sat. dish underground in. Cant leave it on top of the ground tho cause the bears love to chew it.

I used that sos tape then coated it with liquid rubber then black tape over that before. I have used shrink tubing for small stuff but not familar with (mung in therm)

I have the wires just hose clamped together for now, tried to find aluminum fittings to put it together when I was in town but no luck will have to look online and see if they have large enough shrink tubeing to cover it. Know any good sites for elec. supplies?