Adding rear remotes where there are none existing

[bookel]

I have a Deutz D4006. I am also a newbie to hydraulics. My tractor has power steering and a working 3pt. I am wanting to expand the use of my tractor; use a post driver, possible add a top n tilt and an fel in the future. I'd like to add remote hydraulics to the rear to start with, moving into adding fel later. My thing is I have no idea how to do this, what parts are needed yada yada yada. I am very mechanically inclined. I do all of my own auto and otherwise work. I've seen some write ups on here for adding rear remotes to tractors with fel's but not without. How do I tap into my hydraulics and get me some rear remotes?

 

[jenkinsph]

welcome to TBN bookel,

This can be fairly involved and is imo beyond what I would expect to learn on an internet forum. I would suggest you starting researching and reading up on basic hydraulics to understand how they work. Not wanting to offend you but I would highly recommend that you put the money for these modifications into a tractor and fel that is already equipped with the hydraulics you want.

 

[CalG]

I extended the power beyond circuit buy redirecting the out flow from the power steering priority valve.

If you have a good diagram of the present system, or can make one, adding to it will not be beyond the advice of this forum.

Can you get together a diagram that shows ALL the present flow , ports and lines from the pump to sump?

You may need to tap into the circuit between the power steering and the lift.

 

[J_J]

Does you tractor have an external hyd pump?

Can you see a hose or line from the pump to the back of the tractor?

An open center hyd system will have fluid flow all the time.

Is there a hyd block or take off somewhere on the tractor for adding attachments?

Do you have a manual for your tractor.

You could also use a PTO hyd system to power everything hyd.

 

[jenkinsph]

Does you tractor have an external hyd pump?

Can you see a hose or line from the pump to the back of the tractor?

An open center hyd system will have fluid flow all the time.

Is there a hyd block or take off somewhere on the tractor for adding attachments?

Do you have a manual for your tractor.

You could also use a PTO hyd system to power everything hyd.

JJ, as I remember the 4006 has a small pump intended for steering mainly. Not much flow rate to work with, will likely need a new pump or section added and all the parts to go with it if he wan'ts to operate any higher flow hydraulics. Don't know if the one I used was functioning normally (and I was younger with less hydraulics background) but you had to make sure your rockshaft was raised before you started turning the steering wheel or it would raise very slowly.

 

[J_J]

The pump volume is supposed to be around 6.5 GPM,

 

[bookel]

It appears I have a pump mounted up front of the engine. There are two metal lines, one larger one coming out of the top and smaller one out of the bottom. The smaller one goes to the right lower side of the power steering pump. The larger one at about half way back has a fitting the splits the flow, the smaller half of the split goes to the top of the power steering and the larger half continues till it connects into the left side of the fluid tank. On the right side of the tank there is a line coming out that goes to the bottom of the power steering unit. I don't know what the flow direction is but as far as hydraulics on this tractor this appears to be it. I have seen pictures of this tractor model with an fel so it can be done. I just don't know how. I can post pics if that helps.

 

[J_J]

Power steering circuits are normally med hyd pressure.

Put a hyd gage in series with the flow from the pump and see what the pressure when the relief goes off or at the end of steering travel.

You need upward of 2500 psi for a descent lifting capacity.

If the pressure is only around 1200 psi, you might be disappointed. The FEL will work at about any pressure, but you gotta do what you gotta do.

The PTO pump would work quite well and provide a descent lifting capacity.

 

[CalG]

From the description:

Small line from pump to steering control is pressure out.
Large line to pump is suction The tee branch connecting to the steering control is the exhaust The fluid return to tank.

The other line connecting steering control to tank is excess flow from pump.

Any unused ports (capped or plugged on the steering control valve that could be power beyond?

There must be a way;-)


example
Verkaufe Deutz D4006

Is your tractor configured as this photo?
Foto Deutz D4006 #671303

If so, Might be able to tap into the supply line to the lift cylinder

This photo shows a supply line coming from the seat area, going to the loader ??

Used » Deutz » Deutz D4006

 

[bookel]

Ok I think I understand the directional flow of the fluid now. JJ, are you suggesting I use an external pto driven pump? I have thought of that. I have implements that are pto driven and it would be a pain to take that thing on and off but if it turns out I have to then I have to. Calg, Those pictures are indeed of the same model tractor as I have. The second picture have the return line on the left of the tank going in same as mine. The line on the right of the tank is set up different than mine. Mine comes straight off the power steering control. Here are pictures of mine. The last picture is showing a cap on the right side of the power steering control.

 

[CalG]

Bookel

Look at the "Foto Deutz #671303" again. Notice where the rubber line exits the housing
Without additional information, I bet that is a hydraulic pressure tap point. 'Might be for single acting cylinders (dump trailer etc) . I do not see any sort of control knob or handle for it however.
Or it could just be another return to tank for a system out of view ;-)

Dollars to donuts, you could cut into the smaller tube from the PS unit, the one that crosses behind the transmission cover. Rerout to a Power Beyond multi spool directional control valve (loader valve) and then return to that same pipe to restore the flow for the lift (I believe that line is the lift supply) One additional line would need to be added for return to tank (exhaust) from the new Directional (loader) valve> I'm making that claim based on the idea that the Power Steering valve is a priority valve, that passes it's Power Beyond function to the rear lift.

One way to tell is to try to lift a load while exercising the steering gear. If the lift slows or stops while the steering is in motion, that would demonstrate a priority valve in the PS unit.

Any Duetz dealers near you? Worth an ask...

A pump hanging off the rear pto might be fine for something like a back hoe or other major implement, but it would be a pain for a general purpose tractor, just to operate a front bucket. The added tankage is another thing...

 

[J_J]

What is the pressure developed by the Power Steering.

 

[CalG]

What is the pressure developed by the Power Steering.

JJ

Should the question be "what pressure is supplied to the rear lift"?

The power steering may have an internal pressure reduction device ...or not ;-)

The Hurliman has much the same system as "might" be present on the Duetz.
Pump out to PS priority with pressure reduction
PB to rear lift
PS has a line to return to tank
The lift returns "internally"

 

[J_J]

You don't supply pressure. Pressure is developed in the hyd components.

The design of the pump determines the max pressure.

You need to know pump pressure to determine potential.

It may not be worth the effort if the pressure is low.

Would you build a FEL that would only lift 400 lbs or purchase the FEL for $1000?

The Power Steering probably does not put out much GPM, which determines speed, and the pressure, determines the force applied.

The hyd pump on my Power-Trac, has a max pressure of 3000 psi, so that potential might be developed in the hyd components in my hyd system.

Older tractors might work at around 1500 psi, so things have to be known or figured out or measured.

 

[CalG]

You don't supply pressure. Pressure is developed in the hyd components.

The design of the pump determines the max pressure.

You need to know pump pressure to determine potential. [clip]

The Power Steering probably does not put out much GPM, which determines speed, and the pressure, determines the force applied.

JJ

You contradict yourself, saying "you don't supply pressure", and then saying "you need to know pump pressure".
That's it exactly! "What pressure is available to the rear lift?".......... The pump supplies flow, and has an upper pressure limit.
I believe you are under qualifying the fitted hydraulic pump, thinking it is only a power steering pump. From the plumbing shown, the one pump provides fluid to both the steering unit and the rear lift. It should be able to supply other systems as well. Do you see something else?
Looking at the pictures snagged from the web of the same model tractor with loaders installed suggests there is capacity in the original equipment.
A call to a Duetz repair facility would have that number in short time. 1500 or 3K psi, there are cylinders that will do the work. ;-)

It would be helpful if the OP would post pictures of the pump, and the PS plumbing from the side not already shown.
I bet there is a good way to add an Aux circuit in a power beyond configuration.

Bottom line, Any additional hydraulic functions should be pulled from the lift circuit. If that is not the same pump as the PS, I'll be suprised. A quick look in the internet for a replacement hydraulic pump, returns a part that "looks" capable of supplying a loader. There are even some tandem units offered with dedicated power steering pump sections, but I did not confirm part numbers or application.

ps

Read the second post on this reference
Deutz D4006 misc. info requested - Yesterday's Tractors

seems that a power beyond feature is available....

 

[J_J]

If you take a hyd pump and put a hose in the IN port and a hose in the OUT port, and place the hoses in a bucket of hyd fluid, and then turn the pump, the pump will supply volume/GPM, and if you put a gage in that loop, you probably will not read any pressure.

In an open center hyd system like most tractors, with all valves in neutral, the pump is pumping fluid through all valves and to the tank with little or no pressure.

Pressure is developed when the hyd fluid meets a resistance, be it a cyl or hyd motor. Force is now being generated to do what hyd are designed for.

You do know that a small amount of hyd fluid can move a large mass.

You can check the pressure by providing max resistance to the pump flow.

I have no idea what the pressure is on that tractor, but someone can measure it and from that result, one can determine if a FEL is feasible.

 

[Fedup]

Wow! These guys appear to "have it well in hand", here. Hopefully someone out there can help this man solve his problem.

 

[jenkinsph]

If you take a hyd pump and put a hose in the IN port and a hose in the OUT port, and place the hoses in a bucket of hyd fluid, and then turn the pump, the pump will supply volume/GPM, and if you put a gage in that loop, you probably will not read any pressure.

In an open center hyd system like most tractors, with all valves in neutral, the pump is pumping fluid through all valves and to the tank with little or no pressure.

Pressure is developed when the hyd fluid meets a resistance, be it a cyl or hyd motor. Force is now being generated to do what hyd are designed for.

You do know that a small amount of hyd fluid can move a large mass.

You can check the pressure by providing max resistance to the pump flow.

I have no idea what the pressure is on that tractor, but someone can measure it and from that result, one can determine if a FEL is feasible.

I agree with this post,^^^^^^



I just checked Tractordata and the flow is about 6 to 7 gpm, after steering that doesn't leave much. A picture of the pump might help to see if a larger or two section pump could be added. If the OP is going to persevere with this then might as well get it right and see if he can have a second section that is large enough to handle the fel and other outlets if he is spending the money.

 

[CalG]

Wow! These guys appear to "have it well in hand", here. Hopefully someone out there can help this man solve his problem.

Help?

Deutz 3006-loader

and

Dr. Deutz from Walt's Tractor Salvage, new and used parts for Deutz Tractors.

there's the pump! Right behind the exhaust pipe ;-)
https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7313/9048368428_2943205f4b_z.jpg

 

[bookel]

Hi guys, sorry it took me a while to get back. Working 12 hour shifts suck. I've taken a couple of pictures of the pump. Also a picture of the hydraulic line where it splits to where I assume the fluid returns to the suction line from the steering. The splits is the big fitting you see in the line. The lines run together and one is behind the other which is why you can only see one line in the fitting in the picture.

I don't have a gauge to measure the hydraulic pressure. I had assumed that since there were other tractors my model out there I have seen pictures of with fel that mine has the capability. All advice and suggestions to me successfully getting rear remotes, of have a post driver I want to start using soon as well as add a top n tilt, and later on an fel are greatly appreciated.

I almost forgot, the brand and model number of the pump is Bosch 0510512302 in case this helps.