About to buy a grapple - your thoughts?

[buyerjohn]

I've read every grapple thread with great interest and know some of you have very good and strong opinions about which way to go.

Here's my situation: I live in MA and have rocky soil (as in very)...I've found the best way to grade (ultimate use is pasture/plantings) is to use the BB first to loosen the rocks/boulders (steep angle of attack with scarifiers all the way down), then to pick up the large rocks by hand or maneuver them into the bucket. Then I use the LR to finish up. This works very well despite opinions otherwise that the BB is useless in this part of the country. The worst part of this process is the largely hand moving of the rocks into the bucket or the one at a time difficult rock pick up with the bucket.

So, I'd like a grapple for a couple of tasks: first to clear and move debris, logs, etc and to move large rocks/boulders for stone wall building...it's a pain to try and move boulders into the bucket, sometimes by hand. Secondly, the grapple (I think) can be used to skim the surface to pick up the larger boulders that the BB pulls from the ground.

I'm leaning towards the 72" heavy duty grapple from CID (also know as Unlimited Fabrication, LLC) (Skid Steer loader Root Grapple Heavy Duty). My cost will be $1,660 plus $225 to ship it to MA from NC. The heavy duty grapple weight is 800lbs and my loader specs are 2800 lbs of lift at the pivot points (Kioti DK45s). Given that the regular duty grapple is 700lbs and is 3/8" steel vs 1/2" on the heavy duty, I figure it's a small price in weight to pay for the extra steel.

I know islandtractor swears by his millonzi 48" but my thinking is that its a bit small from my 45 hp. I like this grapple because of the protection it gives the cylinder assembly and the hoses are routed through the tubing with very little exposed. The Millonzi design doesn't offer this. I'm going to use the backhoe circuit. Hydro lines are already run from the rear of the tractor to the front which will make connection simple - I'll use the A/B lever in the cab to open/close the grapple.

Here are my questions:

1. what are the benefits/drawbacks of a clamshell design (wrlong) vs this design?
2. Do you foresee any problems with my intended use?
3. Is there a benefit to going with a slightly smaller grapple in terms of maneuverability? This grapple is also available in 63" and 66"...cost differences are minimal.
4. Any issues with using the backhoe circuit?

thanks, John. (need to change my user name as I bought!)

 

[IslandTractor]

Do you need a grapple or a rock bucket? Grapple tines are usually about 9 inches apart so you'll still be picking up lots of rocks with most any grapple. If you got a rock bucket you could add a grapple arm or two that would give you essentially a leaky bucket grapple that should do well for brush clean up too.a

Regarding size, you know my "small is beautiful" rant so I'll say no more. My loader is essentially the same as yours.

 

[amigauser]

I agree, for rock removal work you want a rock bucket.

This place has about the most reasonable pricing I have found. I am sure you could call them and get a price with a grapple arm added.

Rock Buckets

 

[buyerjohn]

I agree, for rock removal work you want a rock bucket.

This place has about the most reasonable pricing I have found. I am sure you could call them and get a price with a grapple arm added.

Rock Buckets

I should clarify, rocks to me are 12 to 24" across and weigh 50 to 100 lbs...the smaller ones are neatly collected by the landscape rake. I don't want to be limited by the sides of the rock bucket in terms of what I can pick up...or is that not an issue?

thanks

 

[amigauser]

If you are looking to pick up just one large rock at time, that is a couple of feet in diameter, than a regular grapple will work. I have used my RBG2 48" grapple to grab and move some fairly large rocks. From your first post I thought you wanted to be able to grab a bunch of smaller rocks at once, that is what a rock bucket is designed to do as it allows you to grab the rocks and leave the dirt/sand behind which falls through the cracks in the bucket.

My grapple is of the clamshell type which keeps the lifting point closer to the FEL arms. That way I can lift more weight than I could with a grapple that has a lifting point farther out. That is the main reason I purchased the WR Long design. It also allows you to drop the open grapple over something wthout curling the FEL much to grab objects. The other design like the Millonzi allows you to slide the grapple under things more easily which is difficult with the clamshell design. With your FEL capacity either type should work fine but the Millonzi style may work better for rocks.

I went with the 48" grapple due to weight but I am not sure what benefit a wider grapple would provide. If you are trying to get into tight spots with it, smaller is better. I would go with the smaller 63" one to save weight. It should work fine for moving rocks, logs, brush, etc.

I would spend the money on a true 3rd hydraulic function setup. I purchased the WR Long version. It is a very clean install and provides a new joystick handle with a toggle button to open/close the grapple. That way you can lift/curl and open/close the grapple without moving your hand from the joystick lever. If your tractor has rear remotes you can also use one of them to open/close the grapple but that would require running some long hydraulic hoses from the rear to the front of your tractor, not a very clean install but it would be functional.

 

[MtnViewRanch]

John, I can't really add anything that you haven't already read, just that I have the 81" version of the heavy duty model that you are looking at and have been quite satisfied with it.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[rvaitor]

I've read every grapple thread with great interest and know some of you have very good and strong opinions about which way to go.

Here's my situation: I live in MA and have rocky soil (as in very)...I've found the best way to grade (ultimate use is pasture/plantings) is to use the BB first to loosen the rocks/boulders (steep angle of attack with scarifiers all the way down), then to pick up the large rocks by hand or maneuver them into the bucket. Then I use the LR to finish up. This works very well despite opinions otherwise that the BB is useless in this part of the country. The worst part of this process is the largely hand moving of the rocks into the bucket or the one at a time difficult rock pick up with the bucket.

So, I'd like a grapple for a couple of tasks: first to clear and move debris, logs, etc and to move large rocks/boulders for stone wall building...it's a pain to try and move boulders into the bucket, sometimes by hand. Secondly, the grapple (I think) can be used to skim the surface to pick up the larger boulders that the BB pulls from the ground.

I'm leaning towards the 72" heavy duty grapple from CID (also know as Unlimited Fabrication, LLC) (Skid Steer loader Root Grapple Heavy Duty). My cost will be $1,660 plus $225 to ship it to MA from NC. The heavy duty grapple weight is 800lbs and my loader specs are 2800 lbs of lift at the pivot points (Kioti DK45s). Given that the regular duty grapple is 700lbs and is 3/8" steel vs 1/2" on the heavy duty, I figure it's a small price in weight to pay for the extra steel.

I know islandtractor swears by his millonzi 48" but my thinking is that its a bit small from my 45 hp. I like this grapple because of the protection it gives the cylinder assembly and the hoses are routed through the tubing with very little exposed. The Millonzi design doesn't offer this. I'm going to use the backhoe circuit. Hydro lines are already run from the rear of the tractor to the front which will make connection simple - I'll use the A/B lever in the cab to open/close the grapple.

Here are my questions:

1. what are the benefits/drawbacks of a clamshell design (wrlong) vs this design?
2. Do you foresee any problems with my intended use?
3. Is there a benefit to going with a slightly smaller grapple in terms of maneuverability? This grapple is also available in 63" and 66"...cost differences are minimal.
4. Any issues with using the backhoe circuit?

thanks, John. (need to change my user name as I bought!)

I have 66" on my DK55c and have found that it is not practical to run through the ground (effectively sifting the rocks and debris). It is mostly a tool for picking up ungainly items. Big rocks and brush piles, irrigations hoses(don't ask me about that).

I can save time but also be somewhat tedious.

 

[buyerjohn]

If your tractor has rear remotes you can also use one of them to open/close the grapple but that would require running some long hydraulic hoses from the rear to the front of your tractor, not a very clean install but it would be functional.

ami - thanks for the detailed analysis. This is exactly what I have...I imagine I'd upgrade in the future once I get a feel for what I need.

I have 66" on my DK55c and have found that it is not practical to run through the ground (effectively sifting the rocks and debris). It is mostly a tool for picking up ungainly items. Big rocks and brush piles, irrigations hoses(don't ask me about that).

I won't ask...I don't want to sift...the largest rocks have been popped to the surface by the box blade, so i can either pick them up with the grapple or scoop up them with the grapple and keep going with the box blade.

I didn't understand your point about the clamshell design putting the load closer to the fel arms...isn't the load under both cases rolled backwards? Or is the load in the clamshell design "squeezed" further back in the tines vs the other design it is squeezed at the tine tips?

Interesting to note that wr long offers a bunch of non-clamshell models now.

What do others think about going smaller for greater maneuverability?

 

[MtnViewRanch]

I have 66" on my DK55c and have found that it is not practical to run through the ground (effectively sifting the rocks and debris). It is mostly a tool for picking up ungainly items. Big rocks and brush piles, irrigations hoses(don't ask me about that).

I can save time but also be somewhat tedious.

Not sure how or what you are doing when you are trying to run your grapple through the soil, but I have had pretty good luck running with the leading edges in the ground about 6"- 8". This has worked good for me to clean out roots and the like. I don't have all that many rocks down in the soil. I might also have an easier time of it with the type of soil and size of my tractor.

 

[Glowplug]

Gotta love the grapple! The only thing I would have to say is to not overlook IslandTractor's advice for smaller. I purchased the MarkhamWelding heavy duty grapple rake for my Kubota M7040 with LA1153 loader. I bought the 66" version which weighs barely over 800# Now you're talking about a loader with a lift-capacity of 3700# at the bucket pivot point and a tractor width of 7-ft from outside tire to outside tire. And I feel I could've gotten some benefit from going smaller and lighter! Don't get me wrong, I love my grapple. It stays on my tractor virtually 100% of the time. But there is something to be said for IslandTractor's "small is beautiful" philosophy. I believe the large, wide, heavy-duty grapples would work best on skid steers with a lift capacity of several tons.

Clickable Thumbnails:

 

[rvaitor]

Not sure how or what you are doing when you are trying to run your grapple through the soil, but I have had pretty good luck running with the leading edges in the ground about 6"- 8". This has worked good for me to clean out roots and the like. I don't have all that many rocks down in the soil. I might also have an easier time of it with the type of soil and size of my tractor.

Seems your soil is a little sandier than mine.

My grapple has at bar running across the front with teeth sticking out with wedges to support or keep them from bending. This also make it more difficult for the unit to slice through the ground.

Even with brush piles, I've found it to be easier, less tedious just to push the whole thing rather than picking up and carrying. Carrying / gathering can also can save time. I guess it take less time to take stuff down than it does to clean it up.

Here is a unit I like but didn't end up buying. I like the long teeth

www.TheRakeShop.com // call us @ 352-308-7346

 

[smitty9266]

I own 2 grapples one is a stump grapple bucket, very narrow with one grapple arm. The other is a WR Long RGB-60 one grapple arm but two cylinders. I also have access to a standard grapple bucket with tine bottom and two grapple arms.

The problem with most grapple buckets is that the bottom is to long for CUT tractors. A 24 inch bottom will put the load out to far from the loader pins, you loose capacity but worse is you change the dynamics of the loader. When you go to dump the load you have to be cautious because it will dump fast and hard with the load out so far. Also when you back drag or use the tines to push you have a lot of leverage on the loader cylinders.

In a perfect world you could find a bucket with a short bottom and tines. They are few and far between, good luck. This is how I ended up with 2 grapples, they each have their good points bad points.


Jeff

 

[pitt_md]

Just one comment on the size...
FWIW: I have been told by WR Long and my tractor implement dealer that you want to keep the width of the grapple less than that of your tractor. I ordered a OBG-2 from WR Long in the 56" version. Looks like the one you have pictured but a lighter weight unit. I have a 50hp Kubota. Good luck with what ever you decide on.

 

[buyerjohn]

The problem with most grapple buckets is that the bottom is to long for CUT tractors. A 24 inch bottom will put the load out to far from the loader pins, you loose capacity but worse is you change the dynamics of the loader. When you go to dump the load you have to be cautious because it will dump fast and hard with the load out so far. Also when you back drag or use the tines to push you have a lot of leverage on the loader cylinders.


Jeff

thanks for the explanation but I'm still not clear. I didn't understand your point about the clamshell design putting the load closer to the fel arms...isn't the load under both cases rolled backwards? Or is the load in the clamshell design "squeezed" further back in the tines vs the flat-bottomed design it is squeezed at the tine tips?

Is that why you say the load is too far out with the flat bottom grapple?

thanks.

 

[IslandTractor]

I've been trying not to comment but just cannot sit on my hands. I think there is a theme here that grapples should be narrower than standard bucket size for a given tractor. How narrow is perhaps debatable but a tractor with a standard 72 inch bucket is not one you would match with a 72 inch grapple.

There are a number of reasons to prefer a narrow grapple:

First is that wide grapples do not really hold much more brush than narrow grapples. Brush sticks together so you can load up a narrow grapple easily.

Second, when you do load up a grapple with brush it is very difficult to see where you are going. Having a narrow grapple allows you to "look around" the load while having a six foot grapple makes that hard to do and will require that you raise the grapple to see under it which is potentially destabilizing for the tractor.

Third, a narrow grapple actually lets you put more force into a patch of ground as your tines are not trying to dig up irrelevant dirt/rocks/roots when you are focused on digging out a single stump. Also, narrow grapples keep the forces on the FEL centered. It is harmful to put the corner of a wide grapple under a heavy/immobile object and then put full FEL force on it in such an asymmetric way. Tractor FELs are not designed to withstand that sort of twisting abuse.

Fourth, narrower grapples weigh less so you will have greater net lift capacity. I know that if you have a powerful loader this is less of an issue but even with a 2800lb lift capacity loader, there is a significant difference in net capacity when you subtract 800lbs for a heavy duty wide grapple compared to 300lbs for a narrow light duty grapple. If you don't care about 500lbs extra lift capacity then buy a smaller FEL and get the smaller grapple for double cost savings. If you care about lift capacity then an extra 500lbs should mean something. I can pick up a bigger stump with my 2700lb loader capacity matched with a 300lb grapple than you can with your 3000lb loader and a 800lb grapple. Same goes for rocks, trees etc.

Fifth, light duty grapples (3/8 inch mild steel) survive very well when used with CUTs. Mine has no trouble matched with 2700lb loader lift. "Heavy duty" is not needed for CUTs. HD is for large skid steers.

Sixth, the people who sell grapples are often not very experienced in using them on CUTs and tend to give advice appropriate for skid steers so they tend to advise larger sizes than optimal for CUTs.

Seventh, narrower grapples are easier to manuver.

Finally, smaller lighter grapples are cheaper to buy and cheaper to ship and easier to store.

There, I feel better now.

 

[wedge40]

I've been trying not to comment but just cannot sit on my hands. I think there is a theme here that grapples should be narrower than standard bucket size for a given tractor. How narrow is perhaps debatable but a tractor with a standard 72 inch bucket is not one you would match with a 72 inch grapple.

IT A lot of us here on TBN would have been dissapointed if you didn't get your two cents in. You always make good points about grapples and which one to purchase . I'm pretty sure I'll getting a millonzi when the funding is available and the choice will have a lot to do with you're comments.
Wedge

 

[257NH]

Hello buyerjohn
I think theres something to be said for dealing with local business.Here is what I bought from a company in mass.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/257nh/grapplefront.jpg
Their website is here:
Home

 

[Charlesaf3]

I want to second Islandtractor. A smaller grapple is really the way to go.

Even light duty has an argument on a CUT. Think about it - which would you rather have fail, a grapple tine, or a FEL arm? I'd rather have the grapple tine fail myself...

And a wider grapple does bad things leverage wise, as stated.

You always will have a failure point in the system. Nice to have it be something cheap, rather than something expensive.

By the way - I do think hose protection is a weakness of the Millonzi. But hey, I paid $700 for it, so I'm willing to do some minor things like hose repair.

 

[buyerjohn]

Island - you convinced me to go narrower...outstanding summary, should be required reading for grapple buyers.

Still looking for some explanation on clamshell vs flat...

Prices:

Millonzi is $921 for the LD-48 and $1,554 for the LD-60
WR Long RBG-60 is $2,475 - I didn't get a RBG-2 price
CID 63" $1,460 (3/8" steel) or $1,610 (1/2" steel)

all prices w/o shipping.

I'd love to deal local but don't have a trailer so the freight cost of $225 is offset by the delivery fee and sales tax.

 

[buyerjohn]

Hello buyerjohn
I think theres something to be said for dealing with local business.Here is what I bought from a company in mass.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r287/257nh/grapplefront.jpg
Their website is here:
Home

what manufacturer is your grapple? cost? size? 60"?

can you sift through dirt with it to pick up larger rocks?

thanks.