5150 smoke problem

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 19, 2013

I bought a used 2004 5150 John Deere tractor. I have been using it for about an hour and had no problems starting it. This morning it was snowy and cold. I tried starting it as usual, but nothing happened. I had lights, but no crank. So I hooked up my charger to the positive and negative posts (not on the battery) but on the side of the tractor where one can charge it. The charger recycled like it was charging and then quit, and this went on at 40 amps for a few times. Finally, I saw smoke emanating I think from the starter under the hood. Turned charger off. A friend came over and he fiddled with the selenoid wires and the electrical connectors under the tractor seat. To my surprise, the tractor started up. Lights worked and I did a half hour of snowblowing. Did I damage anything? Do you think any wires were fried?

AKfish · Mar 20, 2013

Ed Hahnenberg said:
I bought a used 2004 5150 John Deere tractor. I have been using it for about an hour and had no problems starting it. This morning it was snowy and cold. I tried starting it as usual, but nothing happened. I had lights, but no crank. So I hooked up my charger to the positive and negative posts (not on the battery) but on the side of the tractor where one can charge it. The charger recycled like it was charging and then quit, and this went on at 40 amps for a few times. Finally, I saw smoke emanating I think from the starter under the hood. Turned charger off. A friend came over and he fiddled with the selenoid wires and the electrical connectors under the tractor seat. To my surprise, the tractor started up. Lights worked and I did a half hour of snowblowing. Did I damage anything? Do you think any wires were fried?

You're gonna have to look at the wires. It may have been that the wires were simply loose and the charger generated some heat at the point of connection where the wires were loose. That can happen - loose connection - shorting, heat, smoke. 40 amps is a pretty hefty "boost"!

However, if everything is working as it should; you may not have any damage or long-term upset. Nonetheless, you need to check the cables for signs of heat damage; i.e. melted, blackened insulation, etc.

AKfish

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

AKfish said:
You're gonna have to look at the wires. It may have been that the wires were simply loose and the charger generated some heat at the point of connection where the wires were loose. That can happen - loose connection - shorting, heat, smoke. 40 amps is a pretty hefty "boost"!

However, if everything is working as it should; you may not have any damage or long-term upset. Nonetheless, you need to check the cables for signs of heat damage; i.e. melted, blackened insulation, etc.

AKfish

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

AKfish...What would cause the weird behavior of the charger? I have never seen that before...and a 40 amp boost is not like a 200 amp boost I have used on a low battery in a riding mower to get it started.

AKfish · Mar 20, 2013

Ed Hahnenberg said:
AKfish...What would cause the weird behavior of the charger? I have never seen that before...and a 40 amp boost is not like a 200 amp boost I have used on a low battery in a riding mower to get it started.

I have 2 battery chargers. One, has a 50amp starting boost. The other has a 75amp starting boost. Typically, you use the starting boost for 10-15 minutes and then start the vehicle. I don't think I've ever seen a 200amp starting boost!!

I'm not altogether clear on what exactly the charger "acted like", however. Other than cause the wiring somewhere near the starter/solenoid to smoke?

AKfish

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

AKfish....My charger is similar to the Schumacher Electric 10/40/200 AMP Manual Battery Charger w/ Wheels SE4020.

The charger would charge for a second, then shut of, then on, then off...20 seconds or so until I shut it off. I reclamped the charger and for the next 10 seconds it did the same until I saw the smoke...at which I shut it down for good.

AKfish · Mar 20, 2013

Ed Hahnenberg said:
AKfish....My charger is similar to the Schumacher Electric 10/40/200 AMP Manual Battery Charger w/ Wheels SE4020.

The charger would charge for a second, then shut of, then on, then off...20 seconds or so until I shut it off. I reclamped the charger and for the next 10 seconds it did the same until I saw the smoke...at which I shut it down for good.

Well... if I had to guess; it may have been that whenever the loose connection was "complete" it would allow current to pass through the circuit of battery-starter-solenoid, and the charger would load up. As the charger "kicked in" there would be a resulting spark or jolt at the loose junction and the connection-circuit would break causing the charger to unload or shut off. Repeat several times until the loose junction was hot enough to get "smokin'"!

AKfish

Tx Jim · Mar 20, 2013

I agree with AKfish in that there must have been a loose battery cable not allowing completion of the circuit therefore your battery charger was cycling.

sandyc · Mar 20, 2013

I would agree with the other folks and suggest that you make sure all wires are tight and insulated

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

AKfish...Sounds very reasonable. Actually when I bought it none of the dash gauges worked, except the 00 00 that came on when the key was turned. Strangely all fuses are good.

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

Tx...Do you think any wires are fried? I used the tractor for half an hour snow blowing without any problem.

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

To anyone...Obviously you can tell I know very little about a JD. I have always had a Case (1978 990). However, looking at an online operator's manual for the 5105, I hooked the charger up to the fusible link instead of the battery. That's when the charger did its on-off recyling. The smoke did not come from there, though.

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

I just went out and did more snowblowing. No problems. I am thinking, considering the windy and very snowy conditions yesterday, and since my tractor was only partially in a small shed, that the "smoke" I saw was not that at all, but a gust of snow. Some of these gusts can mimic smoke. Thinking back, I never smelled smoke and the wind was blowing in my direction.

Tx Jim · Mar 20, 2013

Ed Hahnenberg said:
AKfish...Sounds very reasonable. Actually when I bought it none of the dash gauges worked, except the 00 00 that came on when the key was turned. Strangely all fuses are good.

If no gauges work with good fuses then check dash cluster ground connection.

cheoah · Mar 20, 2013

40 amps is certainly no trickle charge but should not do any damage for such a short duration. My boat has a 100 A alternator on the yanmar 35 hp but it has a smart external multistage regulator.

I also have a charger on the farm with a 200 A position but not to be used for more than 5 seconds. Always charge at the lowest amperage you can to get a complete charge. Our fast charge is 30 A and I installed a timer in that outlet so cannot go over 2 hours.

Everything in that battery circuit has big cabling, right? 40 A should not be too much from a wire size perspective, nor a big battery for just 15 minutes. Unclear on tractor but think you meant 5105, which should have a good sized battery. If it was really cold, maybe charger or battery might make a little heat, and maybe some vapor/steam from battery - but smoke? I dunno. Newer smart chargers are good at sensing battery condition and won't throw amperage at it regardless of condition. Nonetheless good to have a manual charger to put on when you willfully want to override an auto charger, but good to babysit it like you did.

Bad connections are always a place to start. Having a boat has made me better at making good connections, sizing wire properly, use heat shrink tubing, etc. the salt air is tough on wiring, and hard run tractors can be too. Check charger connections too

Good luck, and sorry to hear about the snow. Since no more benefit from our freezes here, I'm over the winter thing. Insects were bad here last year, but these 25 degree nights aren't going to help that much anymore so bring on the sun. It was 70 and sunny here all weekend and the grass grew inches.

Ed Hahnenberg · Mar 20, 2013

cheoh...I am convinced that it was a gust of fine snow (white-out-like). I would have smelled smoke if it was that because I was 3 feet away from the "smoke" and the wind was blowing hard in my direction. I guess I just panicked.

Interestingly, the battery is really quite small, because I was told by a local JD mechanic that this recent type of a tractor (5105) does not need much to power it up.

cheoah · Mar 20, 2013

Well I have a 5085 but honestly haven't looked at the battery since I bought it, just enough to appreciate the access compared to older models. Our 6300 had posts under the steps to make it easier, and while slick, I'm not crazy about it.

I would continue to be vigilant when using that amperage but unless you smelled something you may be right about the snow.

CliffordK · Mar 20, 2013

How big are the wire going from the remote charging posts to the battery?

40A, one would expect it to be 6 to 8 AWG.

I would expect them to be the same size as the wires going to the starter motor.

Is it possible that JD expected those posts to only be used for trickle charging at 8 to 10A?

If the battery was fully charged, then 40A should have brought the voltage of the battery up from about 13V to 15V or higher. The charger should automatically shut down at the high voltages.

jd110 · Mar 20, 2013

Ed Hahnenberg said:
AKfish...Sounds very reasonable. Actually when I bought it none of the dash gauges worked, except the 00 00 that came on when the key was turned. Strangely all fuses are good.

Ed, if you have 00 00 on your display, that means you hae a fuse inserted in the "DIAG" position. There should be no fuse in that position unless you are running diagnostic tests or calibrations. Remove that fuse and your gauges may all work.