4300 glow plugs?

[Harry in Ky]

4300 hard starting cold. My first thought was glow plugs not working.

Parts book shows no glow plugs, just a manifold grid heater. I can't see much of the top of the head without removing the air filter housing. So would it be safe to assume there are no glow plugs? The air heater and related circuits would be what I should be looking at?

 

[beenthere]

Correct, no glow plugs as such. Just the intake manifold heater.

Check with Deere dealer for part # M801118, or search on line. May have been a part change.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/72699/referrer/search/pgId/2784560/partnumber/M801118/callout/13

Key # 13

 

[Harry in Ky]

Yes, I found that already. I also found a diagram of relays stating it's for a 4300. Doesn't say for what version, just 4300. It shows a number of relays, four of which pertain mainly to engine functions. (start relay, fuel shut off rely, etc) One listed as K1 manifold relay. What might that be, if not a manifold HEATER relay?

 

[nisaacs]

It should start instantly without the pre heater unless it is really cold. Weak battery is a probability.

 

[Egon]

4300 hard starting cold. My first thought was glow plugs not working.

Parts book shows no glow plugs, just a manifold grid heater. I can't see much of the top of the head without removing the air filter housing. So would it be safe to assume there are no glow plugs? The air heater and related circuits would be what I should be looking at?

Did you try the pre heater?

 

[Harry in Ky]

It should start instantly without the pre heater unless it is really cold. Weak battery is a probability.

Maybe it SHOULD, but it doesn't. Nothing wrong battery wise, cranks well enough. Next step is to check out the heater. See if it's getting power, working or not, that sort of thing.

I just couldn't tell what it has yesterday, what with the fuel tank, coolant overflow tank, and air cleaner all in the road. Something has to come off to get to it. Trying to peek around the loader frame I couldn't see what holds the air cleaner on.

 

[beenthere]

Find yourself a service tech manual for the 4300. It will help when tracking down a problem, as you have the wiring diagrams in front of you.

FEL is easy to drop, then raise the hood and remove the side panels. Should see voltage going to the heater when the ignition key is turned on and pushed inward. That "push in" for 10 seconds is what activates the heater.
Is that how you are engaging the heater?

 

[Harry in Ky]

Find yourself a service tech manual for the 4300. It will help when tracking down a problem, as you have the wiring diagrams in front of you.

FEL is easy to drop, then raise the hood and remove the side panels. Should see voltage going to the heater when the ignition key is turned on and pushed inward. That "push in" for 10 seconds is what activates the heater.
Is that how you are engaging the heater?

The FEL is NOT easy to drop, because the hydraulics currently don't work either. If the heater was even visible, let alone accessible, I would already have checked that.

And yes, turning the key on and pushing in on it activates the glow plug light on the dash. That tells me at least the first portion of the circuit is working. I'll work my way through the rest of it as things progress. I don't think I need to invest in a service manual just to deal with this. Once I figure out what and where the various parts are, I think I can figure it out.

The next item on the list is to drain the hydraulic oil, clean the suction screen, put some new oil in and see what effect that has.

 

[nisaacs]

Maybe it SHOULD, but it doesn't. Nothing wrong battery wise, cranks well enough. Next step is to check out the heater. See if it's getting power, working or not, that sort of thing.

I just couldn't tell what it has yesterday, what with the fuel tank, coolant overflow tank, and air cleaner all in the road. Something has to come off to get to it. Trying to peek around the loader frame I couldn't see what holds the air cleaner on.

It is not the pre heater causing the hard cold start. My guess is it is working but don't help because that is not what is causing the hard start. Low compression, weak injector pump/injectors or air in the fuel system overnight.

I am unsure what you consider cold. I can't imagine Kentucky being cold right now. 20 degrees and above, the little Yanmar is good to go, without pre heat. If you mean zero or below, then yes you are probably on the right track.

 

[Egon]

Another question. When the key is turned on can you hear the injection pump solenoid clack? If not check or replace the thermistor that controls solenoid amperage. It should be in a wiring bundle behind the fuse block. They are under ten dollars.

 

[Harry in Ky]

By cold start I'm referring to the first start of the day. The day I was there the temp was near 50. It shouldn't have needed heat, since it's apparently direct injection, not a glow plug engine, I didn't know that at the time. Next time I will pay more attention to the fuel side of things. Once it's running there is no evidence of internal problems or compression issues. The oil doesn't have a burnt smell or evidence of exhaust contamination. It runs smooth, and the exhaust seemed clean enough as I recall. Although with the hydraulic issues it has, I didn't run it all that long. I have a bit more insight as to what to look for now.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Another question. When the key is turned on can you hear the injection pump solenoid clack? If not check or replace the thermistor that controls solenoid amperage. It should be in a wiring bundle behind the fuse block. They are under ten dollars.

Sorry, I'm not really up to speed on John Deere's thermistor concept. I understand the principal (for the most part) but haven't had much experience with dealing with problems in that area. I would think if that were an issue here it probably wouldn't start or run at all. Is that not what usually happens when one fails?

 

[pmsmechanic]

My 4410 (similar engine) starts very easily down to about -10C (14F) without any glow plug use. Just so you have an idea of how your engine should start.

 

[Egon]

Sorry, I'm not really up to speed on John Deere's thermistor concept. I understand the principal (for the most part) but haven't had much experience with dealing with problems in that area. I would think if that were an issue here it probably wouldn't start or run at all. Is that not what usually happens when one fails?

The thermistors have been a problem in the past and their performance may vary. I’ve had a lot of thermistor problems with my JD 4200. Could not find it as it was well hidden inside of a cable bundle.

They control the amperage to the injection pump for start up and long time running.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Okay, but what are the symptoms of a failure of the part?

 

[Egon]

Okay, but what are the symptoms of a failure of the part?

you will not hear a clack and the engine turns over but gets no fuel.

 

[Harry in Ky]

Sounds like a failure there would result in the engine not running at all. This one seems to run just fine once it gets going. It seemed to to start just fine the second time.

I'll listen for the solenoid next time out there.

 

[rScotty]

I don't know about the 4300 specifically, but not many if any of those Yanmar engines used glow plugs.

Instead, they used a pre-heater in the intake manifold. Called Yanmar Thermostart, It is basically a little container of diesel fuel that drips a few drops onto a heated coil. Often triggered from the ignition key circuit. They tend to make a little
"pop" sound when actuated.

Look under the hood and see if there is a plastic container suspended above the intake manifold. If so, see if it has fuel in it.
Here is an article on the Yanmar Thermostart system

All States Ag Parts | Used & New Tractor, Combine & Skid Steer Parts

All States Ag Parts is the leading supplier of tractor, combine, and skid steer parts to North America. Shop for new aftermarket, remanufactured, and used tractor parts.

www.hoyetractor.com

rScotty

 

[Harry in Ky]

This tractor has nothing like that. I expect it's more like this.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/75863/referrer/navigation/pgId/2784560

I see them on a number of different engines on many tractor makes. Deere uses something very similar on the 5000 series. I've seen them in many places commonly referred to as a grid heater.

 

[rScotty]

O

This tractor has nothing like that. I expect it's more like this.

https://partscatalog.deere.com/jdrc/sidebyside/equipment/75863/referrer/navigation/pgId/2784560

I see them on a number of different engines on many tractor makes. Deere uses something very similar on the 5000 series. I've seen them in many places commonly referred to as a grid heater.

Sure, that would work. I'd suspect that grid systemwould use a bit more amperage - which might be an issue but more likely just a good reason to keep the battery and cables strong.

What bothers me is that it needs any help in Ky..... And I see a couple of others say the same. Their comments parallel my thinking. From what you describe about the tractor, the compression on yours sounds good. That doesn't surprise me. It should be - those engines are known to be good ones and long lasting. So I'm stumped and hope you post when you find it.

All taken together, it seems like you may need to look for something other than a malfunctioning intake heater.