422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.

/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#21  
Idabe I hope I'm way off but this sounds quite a bit like my gas in my crankcase issue. I got quite a bit of whitish smoke and she died. Have you checked your oil level? See http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/149992-2-part-gas-1-part.html. You might take a sniff of the towell you clean the dipstick on too just to be on the safe side.

Yes, I do think there is gas in the oil. The oil level is good, but I do smell gas by smelling the dip stick.

Seeing that my Robin has ALWAYS run rich (even after new carb was installed) shouldn't there be away to "adjust" the fuel into the carb?

Today I installed two NEW plugs.
Installed all NEW fuel hose.
Installed a NEW fuel hose line filter.
Cleaned the outside of "fuel pump" and blew out the inside lightly.
Cleaned the "air cleaner base", (removed it to get underneath).
Cleande all around the carb (didn't take apart).

And I installed a "fuel shut off" valve under the gas tank, the first few months I had it when I first bought it used (after reading about elevated tank on Robin site...Hey! PT, don't you guys converse with your venders...or at least READ!?).

So, SUGGESTIONS?

I guess I will change the oil AGAIN. But to me the problem seems to be way to rich carb.

Btw, I have not tried to start it, and don't think I will try (first change the oil) until I can see if I can contact someone for some "enlightenment" from the Robin dealership. (Hey Jack! Are you still peaking in on this forum?)

No sense in fouling up two NEW plugs. Or diluting NEW oil.
 
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/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #24  
(Hey Jack! Are you still peaking in on this forum?)

I believe JackRobin moved to a different position a while back and the new guy hasn't been active here.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#25  
Thanks for the update Gravy.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #26  
Well, I guess the fuel in the crankcase thingy, should be an incentive for all to get, and use the fuel shutoff valve, be it manual or electric.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#27  
JJ, I have used one (shut off valve/manual) almost from the time I bought the machine, and definitely since the new carb was installed. Have always used it.

I spoke with a man who works on small engines in another state, and he told me that Robin and Honda engines with the "pulse fuel pump" are known to have issues with pin holes in the diaphrams. He said he has changed 3 pumps in the last two weeks. Also said that B&S makes the same pump for about half the price.

So, I am hoping that changing that pump next, will do the cure.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#28  
Woodlandfarms,
Thanks for the article.
Read most of it, but I really don't want to get into rebuilding carbs. I don't mind "cleaning" maybe once every five years or so (and to me it should not have to be done more than that or it is just a poor design) but that is about all I want to mess with.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#29  
First let me vent- I WILL NEVER NEVER NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN'S ENGINE!

Ok, glad I got that out of the way.

Alright, I have put in new plugs/fuel hoses/oil/oil filter/and a new pulse fuel pump.

Throttle on 3/4, Choke on full, turn key to crank engine for about 5-8 seconds, and wallah! NOTHING!

Try again, for about 5 seconds, same as first! Try again with Choke off, for about 6-8 more seconds, and viola! NOTHING!

Nothing that is but a carb full of FUEL!!!

I am looking down into the carb (already see gas all over the base, where the air filter sits) and I bump up against the tire to shake the tractor a bit, and can see fuel puddle in the carb!

Now what...besides a match! No really. I am ready to torch this thing (as my wife cheers me on in the background to JUST DO IT!).

Any other suggestions guys, before "the wife thou hast given me" moves me to do something I would probably regret later on ;~)
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #30  
ldabe,

Do you know for sure that you have spark? Did you try starter fluid?
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #31  
May I suggest, from a cold start, I have better luck with starting at idle. With my 422 the thing needs to fire off and heat up before you can get and speed up. If I add any throttle or choke from a cold start all I do is flood the thing out. I must say that I live just North of Hades is South Louisiana so a cold start is a relative thing.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #32  
Let me suggest , to take out the plugs, and lay them on the engine, and turn the ign switch on, and bump the engine around several times to check for a good spark. Make sure the gap is set right. The wrong gap will change timing.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #33  
ldabe,

Do you know for sure that you have spark? Did you try starter fluid?

Is there spark? If there is I have had good luck warming up plugs with the propane torch and then installing them quickly. Add this to turning the engine over with no spark plugs in.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#34  
JJ, yes I plan on doing this, hopefully tomorrow...hopefully.

Bob Rip,

Are you kidding?
I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #35  
Bottom line; the robin is a carbureted engine, and it is showing the symptoms of a common problem eventually shared by all small carbureted engines: stuck or clogged float valve, or waterlogged float. If it was a Kohler, chances of this happening are the same. After you run enough gas through the engine, eventually you might have to clean the carburetor, especially if the engine sits for any length of time idle with the carburetor bowl filled with gasoline.

The float (part 9) controls the needle valve (part 8) to keep the level of fuel in the bowl constant. This "bowl" provides a constant source of fuel to the main jet, through which the fuel is sucked into the incoming air.

If this valve sticks open, the bowl will quickly overflow through the air vent tube, putting a puddle of gas into your carburetor (and in a gravity filled system like this, it could result in putting gasoline into the crankcase, like you reported initially). The fuel solenoid just stops fuel from leaving the fuel bowl and entering the carburetor intake through the main jet when the engine is turned off. With a sticking jet, there is still a path for fuel flow into the carburetor even with the solenoid turned off. With a stuck jet, when you do get the engine started, it might act like it is running rich initially, but when you open the throttle, the bowl will quickly empty, starving the engine of fuel and causing it to stall.

One suggestion is to tap on the side of the carburetor sharply with a wrench next to the fuel inlet tube. You may here a "tink" when the valve comes unstuck, although this will not permanently solve the problem.

Carburetor rebuilds are not actually that hard. All that means is disassembly and cleaning and replacing gaskets and the needle valve. Maybe an hour of work (if you end up with some gaskets that are difficult to scrape off of their sealing surfaces). You don't have to (want to) do it bent over your engine... two bolts and the carburetors off and you can do the fiddly stuff at the workbench (you could also just pop the carburator off and drop it off at a small engine repair shop for rebuild if getting the whole tractor there is too difficult).

The robin service manual doesn't walk you through the rebuild, but there are dozens of generic small engine repair manuals that would cover this. I haven't rebuilt my robin, but I have done this on a number of outboard engines and lawnmowers. YMMV.

You have probably spent more money so far on parts then a small engine shop would charge for a carburetor rebuild. That is the irony of troubleshooting; you always spend more money on finding out what the problem is rather then actually repairing it.

If you want to avoid this sort of problem, then you need a fuel injected engine (or a diesel). Of course, that adds to an exponential increase in engine complexity, and 1000 hours later you will probably be dealing with electronics based starting problems.

Pictures from the Robin service manual:
http://www.robinamerica.com/media/manuals/128937872760282500.pdf

robin_carburator.JPG


Instead of using a propane torch to dry out your engine after flooding with gas, I would just take the sparkplugs out of the engine and leave them on the bench overnight to dry out and allow fuel vapors to leave the cylinders.
 
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/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #36  
JJ, yes I plan on doing this, hopefully tomorrow...hopefully.

Bob Rip,

Are you kidding?
I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.


I have used this warming of spark plugs on many different engines - Chevy V, Briggs and Stratton, Honda etc. It's just a technique for getting an engine started when it's flooded or very cold or has not ben run for a long time. This is not unique to Robin. I have 800 plus hours on my engine. I expect to do carb cleaning, fuel line replacement, etc. at this age. I have run this engine harder than any small engine I have owned. The environment is extremely dirty. I am pleased with the engine in general.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #37  
Unfortunately, you have a systematic problem that has never been fixed/identified and so you continue getting the negative reinforcement each time you use the thing.

It could be either the carb or the fuel pump. The engine crankcase pressure pumps can also develop pinhole leaks and either suck air or flood the crankcase. Since this is a 4 stroke, flooding the crankcase will not produce rich running symptoms, but this was one of the problems I had with a mercury outboard.

If you are not sure of the carb, get a primer bulb and some fuel line and fill the carb using the primer bulb. If you can not get the bulb to become firm (or if you see fuel spilling out the carb inlet), then you know for a fact that there is a problem with the float/needle/seat. Until that issue is resolved, you can always expect the engine to be a bear to start. If the oil doesn't stink of gass, maybe the fuel pump is OK.

When last did you replace the spark plug ? Sometimes you get a dud, its a fact of life.

I have said it before (and you have added fuel to the fire, no pun intended) I will NEVER HAVE ANOTHER ROBIN ENGINE!

Going to some of the "extremes" that some have mentioned over many different posts, and basically have to tuck it into bed with you at night, after singing it a little lullaby, and given it a kiss on the cheek, is JUST RIDICULUS!

Sorry for all the exclamation points Bob Rip, nothing against you, it is Robin.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #38  
It could be either the carb or the fuel pump...When last did you replace the spark plug ?
New plugs and fuel pump in post #291, so we are narrowing down on the culprit.

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/power-trac/149637-422-robin-eng-problems-again-3.html#post1736395

When you replaced the fuel line/fuel filter, did you ensure that you completely filled the filter with gasoline? The elbow in the bottom of the tank and the fuel line routing means that the filter might not refill on its own. Last time I did that, I had to get the filter refilled by squeezing the fuel line to move fuel and holding the filter vertical to ensure all the bubbles left it. Which is why the bottom of my tank no longer has a 90 degree elbow, and the fuel filter is now (more or less) right underneath the fuel tank and vertical (so now it is self-priming).

I still think the problem is the float valve.
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN.
  • Thread Starter
#39  
Tim, yes the fuel filter was full. It wasn't lack of fuel but too much.

Anyways, I didn't get back to it till yesterday and did what one of the posters (can't find it right now) said to do when he starts his:

Don't use the choke, and little if any throttle. It fired right up!

I drove it around a little, and everything sounded and operated fine.

I will take it for another drive hopefully today, and then maybe try and do some work with it and see how it does.

Thanks to all for your input.

Btw, the "pulse fuel pump" I bought from a parts dealer was a Honda, at the cost of $10.95! (Man, what a big price range depending on who makes the pump, or sells the pump.)
 
/ 422 Robin eng...problems AGAIN. #40  
Congratulations. I hope it keeps running for you. Was the Honda pump identical with same mounting holes and pressure?
 

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