2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

[milkman]

Hope that fixes it, I'll let you know what I see at HD&R when I get over there.

 

[Coyote machine]

quick update, I found the issue ( I hope) the pre comb inserts were higher than the head sealing surface, gottem flattened. Using my learned machine shop apprentice days of taking a flat file before gauging, and running it over the head surface. removes high spots caused by bolt tightening and knocks off any small high spots.....I got the pre comb inserts flat, straight edged the block and head...GOOD drag using a .001" feeler gauge...took some internal coolant passage pix with my snap on BK6000 borescope. Also got some inside the pre comb chambers while looking for cracks / leaks.


I have more, this should give an idea of inside condition though

My question is how and when do you think the precomb inserts got higher than the head surface? Do you think they have been that way since day one, or since the first head gasket blew out? What do you think could have caused it? Is it likely a factory defect, or a result of shaving the head when the first gasket was replaced, or most recently?

 

[LTEnterprises]

CM..I didn't have the head machined when the 1st gasket let go. I DID see an area for improvement on the HG design...ALL of the small coolant hole between the siamesed cyl's are encircled with compression metal, the 2 hole @ each end are not....I can see if the comp ring split between layers, that could DEFINATELY allow compression to get into those very easily.

as for the inserts, I dont know when they "grew"...I dont see HOW they could have being compressed by the bolts and HG ???

I'm thinking improperly installed from the beginning, just not ENOUGH protrusion to cause immediate issues ??....just a SWAG on my part....STILL haven't gotten a delivery tracking or confirmation from MIE......getting parts for these is like pulling teeth I tell ya

 

[Coyote machine]

LTE,

I agree that logically the inserts have been wrong since day one. It would make sense that this is what took out the factory gasket prematurely, after some hours on the engine. Then without the problem being noticed, and left un-repaired, before the first gasket replacement, the inserts caused it to fail too. Now you've found the likely culprit and have most likely solved it. The chance of compressing head bolts crushing the gasket enough to 'cause' the insert issue is remote at best.

Call Denise at MIE and see where your parts are- she'll give you a tracking #.

 

[LTEnterprises]

Hey CM...got some pics showing the discs...AFTER I "milled" em down..3 and 4 were the problem areas.

These 2 pics show the issue the clearest...I had to move around to get the light just right WO a flash.

I'm HOPING I got em flat enough to seal...certainly wont seal any worse...oh, and yes I CLEAN CLEAN and then CLEAN some more...don't like outside stuff INSIDE

 

[Coyote machine]

LTE,

Looking good. Have you considered having your machine shop get a swirl pattern across the entire head to help grip the head gasket and keep it from any possible movement as it heats and cools? It looks like from the factory they just plane it smooth- but with all the scratch marks I'd have some concern about it sealing as well as you want it to.
Others who have extensive experience with diesel heads might want to chime in on this issue. You could also inquire of MIE and send them your pics and this thread link- I'm sure they would give you their opinion.

 

[GMtb42]

You didn't squirt a bunch of ether in there did you?

 

[LTEnterprises]

Hey CM, putting a "swirl" pattern will not be a problem, I can use a "cookie wheel" on my high speed angle grinder ( porting air tool with a 90* head). I have EVERY possible entrance to the engine hermetically sealed...even the oil feeds to the rockers, so cleaning that wont be an issue.

I talked to Bob from mie yesterday, he's read this thread. I COULD have gotten my parts drop shipped to me from Kioti...IF I was smart enough to call. I had talked to him before and led him to believe that I was gonna wait till after the 1st of the year, I THOUGHT I was gonna need a head.

THEN I figured out what the issue was, ordered through their website. He apologized to me ?? He didn't do A THING that required an apology !! The order time issue was induced by ME !....I now KNOW what to do the next time I need something from them...thanks to Bob !

As far as either being used...no I haven't...but WHY would it matter ? The either would be long evaporated before reassembly anyway

I use a strong carb cleaner for carbon, and brake cleaner for oil residues, AFTER hand scraping surfaces. Good old soap and water is STILL the best pre assy cleaner on the planet....drying with compressed air afterwards of course.

One HAS TO HAVE an array of blow gun configurations anyway, so ANYTHING and everything can get cleared out and dried......least thats what I was taught to do...especially after coming out of the hot tank.

Before I'm asked...I NEVER used a hot tank without TOTAL disassembly.. sure wish I still had access to one, and a CK10, surfacer, valve seat machine,main and rod bore hones, etc...VBG

Cooling is not an issue, I started out by making a grille guard 1st pic...THEN removed the battery from crammed up next to the condenser to out in front of the grille cover.

Then made a heavy bolt on steel ventilated cover for the battery now out front....nice weight too, like I need it with a loader ...LOL

 

[LTEnterprises]

OH ...before I forget...IF you have calcium or some other buildup in the top of your radiator,( thats where all the return action happens with a cooling system) and the lower internals have been verified clean, just dump about 500 BB's in the radiator neck, rock the radiator back and forth side to side ( you will have it out right )....the BB's will "knock the "cling ons" off, WITHOUT getting stuck inside the cooling tubes, then all you have to do is back flush with water.( AFTER you recapture the BB's )

Or if COMPLETLY dry inside...just use a strong shop vac on the upper hose inlet, or the cap hole , with the upper, then lower, hose inlets open....just a thought.

I MAY have an inside view of a calcified radiator somewhere in my borescope pic files. if so, I'll come back and add it....if I can after X-ing out...

 

[LTEnterprises]

I found one of a car I was diagnosing... The bb's wouldn't have helped this one...plugged internally to...verified with an IR temp gun.

This one had the calcium on the RETURN side of the radiator ( cross flow type)

 

[Coyote machine]

Bob at MIE is a good guy- I've bought a bunch of stuff from them over the past several years, (see my signature).
Did you ask him about putting on the swirl?
Jammed radiator(s) can cook a head from lack of flow through the cooling system.
Slap that puppy back together and get some tractoring done!:dance1:
Man, you've even got a Kioti orange building! WOW.

 

[GMtb42]

As far as either being used...no I haven't...but WHY would it matter ? The either would be long evaporated before reassembly anyway

I use a strong carb cleaner for carbon, and brake cleaner for oil residues, AFTER hand scraping surfaces. Good old soap and water is STILL the best pre assy cleaner on the planet....drying with compressed air afterwards of course.

Ether used as starting fluid can cause a huge explosion, when used in excess, in a engine can over stress parts, ie.. head gaskets/bolts.
I am with you on the "cookie wheel", works well.

 

[GMtb42]

That borescope is nice to have.

 

[LTEnterprises]

That borescope is nice to have.

They've came down in price quite a bit...not the Snap On one I have though.

There's a nice one, Matco has em, BUT...they're made in china and can be had really right....under 500...Heck, preventing ONE teardown to diagnose is worth that !

And they have many other good uses too. My S.O. one came with a natural magnet attachment that slips on the end of the viewer, Kinda like the old ink pin slide ons used to be, can save ones behind in an oops.

The one you see @ lowes and places like that....they...well...lets just say aren't that good for what MOST people would use them for

CM......waitin on parts...my fault...but will have it back together over my 2 week business shutdown, starting tomorrow......oh yeah, thats right....the WORLD ENDS tomorrow......**** !!

 

[GMtb42]

"oh yeah, that's right....the WORLD ENDS tomorrow......**** !!" Nice knowing you, funny how mass hysteria can be propagated through just a few misinterpreted words.

Time is a man made concept, without man time ceases to exist.

 

[LTEnterprises]

Ether used as starting fluid can cause a huge explosion, when used in excess, in a engine can over stress parts, ie.. head gaskets/bolts.
I am with you on the "cookie wheel", works well.

Ether as a starting fluid ??...I've seen people do that.....IF <------ supposed to be bold ) I need a "starting aid" in an emergency on a diesel...WD40 baby.

ALL engines "run" the same....suck, squish,bang. blow, @ the right time...I just find out whats missing, and fix it

as for the cookie wheel....BE CAREFUL....that grit can KILL an engine, or anything else with a bearing..thinkin water pump here.

I make DARNED sure that ALL of the cookie residue is washed away.....on EVERYTHING...cept a piece of steel to be welded or plasma'd...VBSEG

 

[ritcheyvs]

That borescope is nice to have.

I bought a Harbor Freight scope (Digital Inspection Camera with Recorder). It seems to work well but some skill is needed to understand what you are seeing. Overall, it's a pretty useful gizmo compared to disassembling stuff.

 

[LTEnterprises]

Well, there's a new and upgraded head gasket for the 4a200 series engines. It's MLS and you must use TTY bolts.

The NEW procedure for the head bolts is: torque to 28.92 ftlbs, step2. turn 90* in sequence, step 3. turn 80* more in sequence.....adjust valves and re assemble.

SO FAR working great ! INSTANT starts, less "knocking" and haven't noticed any loss of power ( the MLS gasket SEEMS thicker)....BTW, MLS head gaskets are the bomb from past experience, I was just suprized they now use them on cast iron to cast iron head joints.

here's the pics of all 3 head gaskets, top is e6500-03311, middle is 03312, bottom is MLS 03313, and the bolt change. OEM bolt next to the TTY bolt ( longer thread section)

Sorry, I forgot to remember the head bolt PN's.

When doing the final "yield" 80*'s, using my "beam" torque wrench, I noticed the final clamp load was between 65 and 80 ftlbs.

DO NOT use this as a spec thinking one can bypass the TTY fasteners, I was just making an observation of final clamping force.

If you do one, you will FEEL the bolts stretching during the yield process.

Thanks for all of the replies and suggestions. It's nice to know that kioti found it nessesary to upgrade these gaskets to MLS, obviously the old designs were failing pretty regularly ( just a GUESS on my part)

 

[GMtb42]

Well, there's a new and upgraded head gasket for the 4a200 series engines. It's MLS and you must use TTY bolts.

The NEW procedure for the head bolts is: torque to 28.92 ftlbs, step2. turn 90* in sequence, step 3. turn 80* more in sequence.....adjust valves and re assemble.

Most automotive specs are like this as well. No more final torque spec just * (degrees). Keeps people who use old beam type torque wrenches from messing up. JK

 

[ritcheyvs]

Very interesting. Do you know the applicability of this new MLS head gasket? For example, is turbo-only? Did they start using it in production at some date? Just wondering in case you happen to know considering the research you've already done. Thanks.