2003 Dk50C 4A200T head bolt length

[LTEnterprises]

I am looking for the head bolt length for the 4a200T engine...this is the SECOND time I'm getting combustion gasses into the cooling system. Put a HG on last year ( I BELIEVE they sent me the 4a200 head gasket). Checked flatness of block and head, super cleaned and dyed head and block surface, no cracks to be seen !

I need the bolt LENGTH because I am going to get ARP studs if I gotta pull this damned head again !! only 1015 hours on it, and ANALLY maintained !

I found M11x1.25 TP...79.5 ft lbs torque ( 80 will be great with ARP)...tired of pulling this turbo motor apart. I just want to USE this tractor.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Coyote machine]

Did you magnaflux the head for cracks? The turbo aspect is what would have me concerned about combustion gases continuing to escape too. Have you done a forum search of prior posts about your model/year with turbo and head/gasket issues?
If it were mine I'd call those dealers with years of experience with these tractors like Wallace or Michigan Iron & Equipment, and discuss it with them, and ask about the bolts too.
If possible I'd verify what exact gasket you were sent.
You can do a search at MIE's web pages for parts breakdown including serial numbers for gaskets/bolts superseeded parts, etc. too.

 

[LTEnterprises]

Thanks for the reply...I DID check the block and head for warpage. used a .002" feeler gauge and straight edge. I cleaned it VERY well, didn't use mag particles,I DID use a dye compound thats used on heads that cant be magnafluxed, and saw no cracks between valves, between combustion seal area to coolant passages, etc.

I've got mich iron equip info and phone #, I have ALL the parts books, repair manuals too. I remember the gasket I was sent was the E6500-03312 ( they said it was an update PN...ha ha) all parts manuals and even online parts info states that the 03312 is for the 4A200...the 4A200T is SUPPOSED to have the E6500-03311...( yippee) Theres even 2 cyl head assy PN's too.

I'm hoping that it's the gasket / bolt stretch issue. Search came up dry on the 4A200T head / gasket issues....a few other engine designs had some though...**** my old 3054 head gasket leaked...but it leaked externally.

I'm in the process of making a compression attachment from an old glow plug. after the tank / firewall is removed, I'll put EACH cyl @ exact tdc and put 150psi air pressure in each cyl and watch for leakage @ the radiator fill neck ( have t-stat out to fill block, then fill rad....if no bubbles @ tdc ( oh my god ) then I'll take the rocker assy off and pressurize @ BDC....I PRAY I dont find bubble @ BDC if none found @ TDC !!! You know what that'd mean

 

[seacap04]

Yeah, good luck. Hopefully 150 psi won't spin the engine on you. Compression building in other cyls should stop it. But you won't be at dtc any more.

 

[Coyote machine]

Thanks for the reply...I DID check the block and head for warpage. used a .002" feeler gauge and straight edge. I cleaned it VERY well, didn't use mag particles,I DID use a dye compound thats used on heads that cant be magnafluxed, and saw no cracks between valves, between combustion seal area to coolant passages, etc.

I've got mich iron equip info and phone #, I have ALL the parts books, repair manuals too. I remember the gasket I was sent was the E6500-03312 ( they said it was an update PN...ha ha) all parts manuals and even online parts info states that the 03312 is for the 4A200...the 4A200T is SUPPOSED to have the E6500-03311...( yippee) Theres even 2 cyl head assy PN's too.

I'm hoping that it's the gasket / bolt stretch issue. Search came up dry on the 4A200T head / gasket issues....a few other engine designs had some though...**** my old 3054 head gasket leaked...but it leaked externally.

I'm in the process of making a compression attachment from an old glow plug. after the tank / firewall is removed, I'll put EACH cyl @ exact tdc and put 150psi air pressure in each cyl and watch for leakage @ the radiator fill neck ( have t-stat out to fill block, then fill rad....if no bubbles @ tdc ( oh my god ) then I'll take the rocker assy off and pressurize @ BDC....I PRAY I dont find bubble @ BDC if none found @ TDC !!! You know what that'd mean

LTE,
I wasn't suggesting you hadn't done a thorough check of everything; it's not known by me whether one can magnaflux those heads or not- just thought I'd ask if it was something you'd included in your process to date. I also don't know if it is recommended, or required to use new head bolts or not, but when in doubt its probably advisable to err on the side of caution. As you said- you just want it to run. Did you re-torque the existing bolts after running the engine; (again I'm not saying it's necessary or required, just curious if that is something that might make sense to include as an added precaution...?). Hopefully this is the last time you take it apart and put it together with better results than most recent attempt.
If I understand what you said above- you think they may have given you the wrong head gasket? Not the turbo designated one? If that's true then I'd be inclined to just put her back together and hope for the best this go round- with new bolts as an added precaution. That's easy for me to say- it's not my rig- BUT wrong gasket on a turbo engine could make all the difference between success and failure.
Keep us posted.

CM out.

 

[LTEnterprises]

I did the air pressure checks this saturday, I brought each cyl up to tdc, you can find exact tdc by applying some pressure, if the crank begins to rotate one way, pull it the opposite way until no movement happens with the valve train still intact. I had NOTHING leaking into the cooling system, with the valve train working.Still no bubbles in the radiator( maybe 150 PSI isn't as high as combustion...well I certainly wouldn't think so VBSEG ) I pulled the rocker shaft assy, put 150 psi in each cyl, and I had AIR LEAKING into the intake manifold on #3, but STILL nothing in the cooling system ??

now I got confused, no leak with valve train working ( maybe I didn't hear it ?) and air leaking WO valve train connected ?? Pulled head, I can see where combustion was leaking @ #3 and #4 by witness marks on the gasket, but the sealing ring including the pre combustion chamber steel ( part of the compression ring on the head gasket) were not breached.

I flipped the head business side facing up @ me, and noticed the pre combustion chamber inserts are very slightly higher than the cylinder sealing area !!??

The head bolts measure 11MM x 1.25 TP and 3.559" from bottom of made on washer to end of bolt, and 4.030 total length from top of hex head to end.

This is where I stand...for now, gonna do some homework on the pre combustion chamber insert removal, if pressed in, will have head milled JUST ENOUGH to get everything flat.

sorry, I havent measured the pre comb insert height from head surface yet...was/am pretty sore from takin all that stuff off a cab tractor.

I'll HAVE TO take pics while it's all apart....was too frustrated to even THINK, especially being this is the SECOND TIME tearing this head off !!(1015 hours as of now) I just HATE doing things like that even ONCE...much LESS TWICE !!

 

[Coyote machine]

Wow, what a nightmare! Sounds like you're making progress- maybe, by having found some things that don't look quite right.
Do you know how much you can shave before the head becomes an anchor?
Are you thinking the head bolts, (stretching?) combined with the pre-combustion chamber inserts issue is causing exhaust bubbles in the coolant?
Did you remove the hood to get better access to the head/engine?
Pics would be great!

 

[ritcheyvs]

...maybe 150 PSI isn't as high as combustion...well I certainly wouldn't think so

As a point of reference, I see 400-450 psi in my (relatively healthy 30 year old) Diesel car in a compression test spinning the motor with the starter. Combustion pressure is considerably higher, maybe 2500 psi.

 

[LTEnterprises]

2500 psi combustion pressure is probably close...VBG...thats why no bubble with 150...LOL

I'm gonna take some pics tonight when I get home from my 4 letter word. I think the ONLY THING that would be worse, would be a clutch install, or an engine block ( bout the same really)...the firewall / fuel tank with ALL of the "controllers" and relays are behind the engine, and the tank/firewall sweeps forward over the rear of the engine...will upload pics tomorrow am....I hope ...that 4 letter word thing seems to get in my way A LOT !!! Can't get ANYTHING important done... LOL

 

[GMtb42]

In my years of doing motor work several things come to mind as important on cylinder head installs, TORQUE PATTERN and TORQUE SPECS. Clean everything as clean as possible, take a old head bolt grind a slit in it and use it as a run through or better yet a tap if you have one, clean, clean, clean, surfaces and threads.
In automotive now head bolts are one time torque, disposable bolts, as you said they stretch, your idea of the studs is a good one, they will withstand more torque and reuse for sure.
Could you see the spot on the gasket where it was leaking by? Usually you can see the erosion where it was leaking at.

 

[LTEnterprises]

The pics on my cell turned out like sheite...gonna use a camera tonight. I uv dyed the head, no cracks OF COURSE.

My fear is an internal crack between pre combustion inserts and close coolant passages. Getting REALLY frustrated !

This engine is NOW STERIL !! ordered everything needed to put it back together, even new head bolts ( ARP was no help). The last time I put a HG on, it lasted around 200 hours, but I did not replace head bolts. I DID retorque them with a beam torque wrench ( the most accurate torque wrenches made ),,,click torque wrenches get em "close enough" if not calibrated REGULARLY...who has time for all of that shipping and expense ?

I'm gonna put it back together with all new hardware, IF it goes well...Thinkin about seeing what kind of deal I could get on a HST cab Kubota. I do not like the fact that all new diesel engines have EGR valves...they tend to clog intake manifolds, search the VW TDI engine intake clogging issues...seems to be "regular maintenance" for EGR equipped diesels..after 2 Kioti's since 93, and BOTH with head gasket issues...kinda leary about Kioti at the moment...I HATE saying that...REALLY.

I'll chill some before making a decision...**** I cant get hold of the parts until 12-21..or later....gettin parts for Kioti's is like pulling teeth...weary of that too......pics of the madness will come...

 

[GMtb42]

The pics on my cell turned out like sheite...gonna use a camera tonight. I uv dyed the head, no cracks OF COURSE.

My fear is an internal crack between pre combustion inserts and close coolant passages. Getting REALLY frustrated !

This engine is NOW STERIL !! ordered everything needed to put it back together, even new head bolts ( ARP was no help). The last time I put a HG on, it lasted around 200 hours, but I did not replace head bolts. I DID retorque them with a beam torque wrench ( the most accurate torque wrenches made ),,,click torque wrenches get em "close enough" if not calibrated REGULARLY...who has time for all of that shipping and expense ?

I'm gonna put it back together with all new hardware, IF it goes well...Thinkin about seeing what kind of deal I could get on a HST cab Kubota. I do not like the fact that all new diesel engines have EGR valves...they tend to clog intake manifolds, search the VW TDI engine intake clogging issues...seems to be "regular maintenance" for EGR equipped diesels..after 2 Kioti's since 93, and BOTH with head gasket issues...kinda leary about Kioti at the moment...I HATE saying that...REALLY.

I'll chill some before making a decision...**** I cant get hold of the parts until 12-21..or later....gettin parts for Kioti's is like pulling teeth...weary of that too......pics of the madness will come...

What the heck are you doing to make head gaskets blow? 2 of them. Same manufacture. Bad luck?
Just seems odd.

 

[LTEnterprises]

I've never overheated one...I mean ever...I am beginning to believe it's poor head / gasket design.

Had I not been running non aqueous propolyne(sp?) glycol zero pressure cooling system, I believe the radiator and/or hoses would have exploded.

These are some pics that turned our FAIR, still need to get one of cylinder head

On the block side of head gasket, I can see SOME combustion witness (lower side of sealing ring in pic) this is where the pre combustion chamber seals from the top side of the gasket

 

[Coyote machine]

I've never overheated one...I mean ever...I am beginning to believe it's poor head / gasket design.

Had I not been running non aqueous propolyne(sp?) glycol zero pressure cooling system, I believe the radiator and/or hoses would have exploded.

These are some pics that turned our FAIR, still need to get one of cylinder head

On the block side of head gasket, I can see SOME combustion witness (lower side of sealing ring in pic) this is where the pre combustion chamber seals from the top side of the gasket

Pics are better when taken BEFORE consuming large quantities of one's favorite beverage!?:drink::licking:
Now, back to the work at hand. I agree, you may still have a head problem, or less likely a head gasket problem. Unfortunately you won't know until everything is back together.
My other question is about your use of non-aqueos coolant. Why are you using that type?
It is just my opinion, BUT is it possible by using the above, you have created a situation where the heat normally extracted by the cooling system is CAUSING your failed gasket issues because it cannot transfer heat out as fast as conventional coolant?

 

[GMtb42]

Ah that Evans stuff. Have read about it on the race software tuning site I visit, and motorcycle forum I am on.
Not real impressed with it, some say it is just a snake oil like product.

Good read here ; http://www.alfabb.com/bb/forums/spider-1966-up/190071-evans-waterless-coolant-jay-lenos-website.html

Quote from there ; "MSDS you referenced and it appears the other 31% is propylene glycol which is not toxic along with a small amount of a proprietary anti-corrosion package, but with 69% being ethylene glycol (the main and toxic ingredient in standard coolant) I wont be drinking the Evans coolant anytime soon!"

 

[LTEnterprises]

I'm not putting the "evans" back in, if I ever get my parts delivered. I too was paranoid about waterless cooling. The gauge never went past the second "normal" mark and I IR temped the whole engine, and never saw anything above 210*F. even @ the head, which is the hottest point in standard coolant flow engines. I think relocating the battery AWAY( can be seen from the left side tractor pic @ the bottom, battery cover removed) from crammed right next to the front of the condensor, did more for cooling and a/c performance than anything else I could have done

The battery sits out front @ the bottom of my home made HD grille guard ( gotta LOVE plasma cutters ! ) Inside of a vented massive channel iron bottomed and heavy steel enclosure. It has been tested MANY times, hitting large oak and hickory, etc logs while using my grapple.

BUT, I am not putting "evans" back in. Why should I, it'll likely get blown out the overflow anyway. I do like the Idea of coolant not dancing off the metal surfaces when things do get a little warm. I know straight EG will make one run hot. I put pure EG in a car once, ran 220*F and would not cool any lower than that, even with a monster radiator installed. 50/50 brought it down to 180*F. Ran evans in that one too for a few years, didn't get hot. I switched to toy red G05 HOAT and 50% DI water because it sits alot, and gaskets ( timing cover ) like to go bad from erosion, even when drained dry. Starting to run that one more now. Got TOO MUCH $$$$$$ in it to let it sit.

I ordered everything from MIE, it will take a week for them to get the parts in their hands, then ship em out to me.

I still can't get an answer about the pre comb. inserts sitting higher than the head surface, mainly in the combustion chamber side of the insert. The repair manual says "do NOT use a straight edge accross the combustion chamber area of the cylinder head. MAYBE they are a bit higher ?? thats the ONLY clue I have found about em.

I'm gonna get into Flatness ( block and head surface) in DETAIL this weekend, chasing threads, etc.....crossing fingers.

Did some mic'ing...M11x1.25 and 7/16 x 20 are the SAME...cept 7/16 is .0012" larger than 11mm... if it weren't for the fact they are HEAD BOLTS, i'd chase em with 7/16 x 20 tap

 

[GMtb42]

Jay Leno ran a episode on Jay's Garage on Evans products, I remember watching it, I think it is still archived on his car site, was intrigued, but then did some research and asking questions. Maybe for a car collector that lets things sit for long periods it will do fine, just don't know about in use equipment. But on Evan's site it list truck fleets that us the stuff.
Yeah straight EG does not work well. I personally use recommended mixture of antifreeze and then add Water Wetter.
I found Water Wetter when I was doing gaming rigs and water cooling the overclocked CPU processor (yes with a water pump, heat sink and radiator), worked great could see 15* to 20* drop in temp over straight water.
I then used Water Wetter in my truck, good stuff, a lot of the track guys at the 1/4 mile track use Water Wetter too.

 

[Coyote machine]

Jay Leno ran a episode on Jay's Garage on Evans products, I remember watching it, I think it is still archived on his car site, was intrigued, but then did some research and asking questions. Maybe for a car collector that lets things sit for long periods it will do fine, just don't know about in use equipment. But on Evan's site it list truck fleets that us the stuff.
Yeah straight EG does not work well. I personally use recommended mixture of antifreeze and then add Water Wetter.
I found Water Wetter when I was doing gaming rigs and water cooling the overclocked CPU processor (yes with a water pump, heat sink and radiator), worked great could see 15* to 20* drop in temp over straight water.
I then used Water Wetter in my truck, good stuff, a lot of the track guys at the 1/4 mile track use Water Wetter too.

I agree with you about 100% EG is like sludge and doesn't help. This is one of those more is NOT better situations.
I know nothing about Evans products but do again agree that it is probably great for Jay's garage type cars, but likely to provide little to no benefit to a diesel tractor engine. And diesel fleet trucks are a whole different animal from tractor and sitting in one spot vintage show cars. Water Wetter? Who would'a thunk? Never heard of that product either- which says nothing except on these two products I'm clueless, but ONLY on them, nothing else!?

I'm pulling for the OP to put it back together and not have to open the hood for the next decade except for routine maint.:thumbsup:

 

[seacap04]

I am no expert. I do not have any experence inside small modern diesels. The old Cats I worked with the precomb cham was completely over the bore. The liner was shimmed above the block a couple thousandths. This is how you sealed the chamber. Without seeing a pic of the buisness side of the head I don't see how you would seal the chamber with offset protruding nozzels. It did leak a little ways into the metal as your pics show. But as you said it did not appear to completely breach the metal seal. I do not see any reason for protruding precomb cham nozzles.

 

[LTEnterprises]

quick update, I found the issue ( I hope) the pre comb inserts were higher than the head sealing surface, gottem flattened. Using my learned machine shop apprentice days of taking a flat file before gauging, and running it over the head surface. removes high spots caused by bolt tightening and knocks off any small high spots.....I got the pre comb inserts flat, straight edged the block and head...GOOD drag using a .001" feeler gauge...took some internal coolant passage pix with my snap on BK6000 borescope. Also got some inside the pre comb chambers while looking for cracks / leaks.

I have more, this should give an idea of inside condition though