1610 head gasket issue

[Box]

Hello,

This is my first post but I have been visiting and reading posts on this site for about 8 months.

I am in the process of repairing a problem with a 1610D that I have and I tought I would post what I have found so far in case there is someone out there that may be experincing the same issue. About 2 months after I purchased the tractor it developed a problem with compression leaking into the coolant jacket. This cuases the coolant to overfill the overflow bottle after about an hour or so of running. If you let the tractor sit over night you can run another hour or so before the same problem comes back. If you stop and add enough coolant to bring the radiator back to full you can only run about 20 minutes between refills. As I said it was getting a lot of compression in the cooling system. I have not found any oil and coolant mixing in either the radiator or the oil pan.

The engine started very well and had plenty of power. The only issue was the stoping every 20 minutes to refill the radiator when I was brush hogging, grading etc...

I tired a new radiator cap, flushing the radiator and cleaning the rad fins, K&W block sealer, bascially all the short cuts with no luck.

After reading several posts on this site, I checked the coolant when the engine was cold to see if I was getting any bubbles and found that I was. I also found that I was getting a back sooty residue in the coolant which to me was another indicator that exhaust was entering the coolant.

So I ordered a head gasket and the other parts needed to replace the head gasket and tore the engine down on the 4th. I found that all 3 cylinders where firing and that over all the engine looks to have little wear on it. The hour meter said it had 824 hours when I purchased the tractor and the engine conditon realtive to wear appears to back up the hour meter reading.

There was no indication as to which cylinder was the one losing compression and in hind sight I should have done a compression test before removing the head but I did not.

I checked the head per the manual for warpage and found none. I had a friend help me with the work who is a mechanic. He suspected a crack might be cuasing the issue, but since it was the 4th we put the engine back together and hoped for the best. When I fired the engine up the issue was worse that it had been so I now think he may have been right about the crack I have the head a machine shop today being checked out.

Over all the engine has been very easy to work on and I am inpressed with just how easly is comes apart and goes back together.

Once I get the problem "fixed" I will post again to let you all know what I found.

One question that I have is has anyone experinced any issues with the head bolts stretching? I am wondering that since I did not find any warpage if it is possible that the head bolts might have stretched and allowed the compressions to leak into the water jacket at the head gasket.

Again I will post a follow up once I have her back together and running.

Box

 

[rock2610D]

I am guessing here but I think on a diesel engine a head gasket could leak toward radiator during the ignition phase (high pressure) and not leak in the opposite direction (IE antifreeze in cylinder).

My gut tells me if condition is "worse" after you replaced head gasket than its NOT a crack. Unless the crack got bigger because you removed the head. If you have the head off tractor you should be able to "see" signs of exhaust/diesel fuel in water passages.

Did you check the block surface for warpage? It could be the head is ok but block surface is goofy.

I am not an expert but there is something called cavitation. It can eat at the cylinder inserts between the block and insert. Could be a leaky insert???

 

[Box]

I am guessing here but I think on a diesel engine a head gasket could leak toward radiator during the ignition phase (high pressure) and not leak in the opposite direction (IE antifreeze in cylinder).

My gut tells me if condition is "worse" after you replaced head gasket than its NOT a crack. Unless the crack got bigger because you removed the head. If you have the head off tractor you should be able to "see" signs of exhaust/diesel fuel in water passages.

Did you check the block surface for warpage? It could be the head is ok but block surface is goofy.

I am not an expert but there is something called cavitation. It can eat at the cylinder inserts between the block and insert. Could be a leaky insert???

Your post brings me another question I have been puzzeling on. The service manual I have is for a Y226 and that manual shows cylinder liners in use. The engine in my 1610 is 3T75U and as far as I can tell this engine does not have any liners. I work around a lot of engines, Cummins mostly so I am familar with what a cylinder line is and how a block looks when one is installed. If this engine has liners they are the tighest fitting I have seen. There is no ridge or line indicating where the liner ends and block begins when you are looking down at the top of the block with the head off. My guess is that these early engines did not have the liners.

As far as block warpage goes, anything is possible. I checked the deck of the block with a straight edge and could not see anything, but of course that does not mean there is not some slight warp to the block that you can't see.

I am at a loss to explain how the compression leaked into the coolant jacket orginally. There was no visable signs of it, except that the coolant ports in the head where a lot cleaner on the #2 cylinder (the one that is leaking) than the other 2 cylinders. I suspect this was partly becuase of the compression keeping them blown out.

All 3 cylinders looked the same so there was no indication that one of these was burning more fuel, less fuel, or had been injesting water.

I should know by this Thursday what the status of the head is.

Thanks for your input.

Box

 

[1danny]

Magnaflux the head and you can find out in about 2 minutes, no liner in the YM1610.

Danny

 

[YanmarFever]

I have an extra 1610 parts engine on hand
Ernie

 

[Sandfarmer]

I had the same problem with my 1610. my old head gasket was visibly burnt/rusty on one cylinder. My engine was running on straight antifreeze from the rebuilder that may have caused some issues.

I had the same problems with the overflow tank blowing out and having to put a lot of fluid in the tank whenever I ran it. I replaced the cap since the cap that came with it had no rubber seal so there would be no pressure in the tank.

I guess my head gasket replacement worked because I have put quite a few hours on it since. However i run with my coolant tank right at the low or cold level. if i run it any higher I have found that when it gets warm it will pop the cap and I lose fluid. Any lower than the low level and the light comes on the dash.

Good luck and don't make my mistake of overtightening the valves (was very frustrating when it would not start after my repair).

 

[Box]

I had the same problem with my 1610. my old head gasket was visibly burnt/rusty on one cylinder. My engine was running on straight antifreeze from the rebuilder that may have caused some issues.

I had the same problems with the overflow tank blowing out and having to put a lot of fluid in the tank whenever I ran it. I replaced the cap since the cap that came with it had no rubber seal so there would be no pressure in the tank.

I guess my head gasket replacement worked because I have put quite a few hours on it since. However i run with my coolant tank right at the low or cold level. if i run it any higher I have found that when it gets warm it will pop the cap and I lose fluid. Any lower than the low level and the light comes on the dash.

Good luck and don't make my mistake of overtightening the valves (was very frustrating when it would not start after my repair).

Thanks Sandfarmer

How tight was too tight for vavles? I need to review that part of the manual once I get my head back from the shop.

Box

 

[larso1]

Box, when you re-torque the head bolts after your initial run-in of an hour or so, the head gasket will probably crush a little more and the valve stem to rocker clearances will close up some. So be sure to check and adjust valve clearances after you retorque the head (I think this is what Sandfarmer is saying), or the valves may not close (seat) fully when they are hot.

As for the head bolts, it's always a good idea to replace them after changing the head gasket/removing the head. They could easily have been torqued to or beyond their yield point and will never recover their initial strength.

Bill

 

[Box]

Lars01, I agree on the head bolts. I am trying to find some now. Hoye didn't have them. If anyone has a set of news please let me know.

Thanks

Box

 

[Box]

Here is an update. I picked up the head yesterday. It was not cracked but did have some warping so it was surfaced and the valves where ground, new seals installed and the head rebuilt so hopefully this will fix the problem I have been having. Apparently the warping was not severe enough to show up when checking with a straight edge as the manual calls out becuase I did not see anything out of spec when I did that check.

I found some head bolts by calling Engines Inc. in Arkansas they are the industrial dealer for Yanmar in my area. If you have part numbers they are gald to help you. The head bolts, head studs and nuts are coming out of Chicago and with any luck will be here today.

So with some luck I will have the tractor back together and running by tomorrow evening. I will update everyone again once I have it running. I sure hope this is it becuase I have grass getting high and I need to get back to brush hogging soon.

 

[kenmac]

atleast you'll know it's not a stuck valve /cracked head causing your over heat / loss water problem. I Hope you have solved your problem

 

[Box]

atleast you'll know it's not a stuck valve /cracked head causing your over heat / loss water problem. I Hope you have solved your problem

Thanks Kenmac....

I got the head back on the engine today and have run it for about 2 hours total since it was installed. So far no puking of water out of the overflow bottle like before, but I am still seeing air bubbles in the radiator while the engine is running. So I am not sure I have fixed anything with all the work I have done and money I have spent. The engine seems to be running fine, it started right up on the second start attempt and sounds good. At least that is going my way.

I ran it for about a half hour after I first got started. Then shut it down and let cool and rechecked the torque on the head bolts and double checked the valve settings. All where as they should be so I think I am good to go for now. I am going to try and put the tractor under a load for several hours tomorrow if weather permits by doing some brush hogging. If it makes it though the day with out any of the old issues I call this a win

I am starting to wonder if there is some way that pressurized air can enter the system that I have not tought of. Since this only happens while the engine is running and stops as soon as you shut it down I was convinced it was compression leaking into the coolant jacket of the engine. Now I'm not so sure. I know the head is good becuase I had it checked so that would only leave the block as a possible source right? This engine runs and starts way to good I think to have a issue with the block, but I could be wrong. Once I am sure the headgasket replacement was a sucess (no mixing of fluids after several hours of hard work) I will recheck the compression on each cylinder just to see if there is any leakage.

Oh yeah something else that happened today that I tought I might should share with everyone. The #3 injector fuel banjo bolt snapped off while I was reinstalling it. That cost me a few hours of pain and heartache. It appeared to be a homemade one after I got to looking at it. Or at least it was not identical to the other 2. So since I could not buy one any where around here, I went to the autoparts store and bought an 8mm by 1.25 grade 5 bolt and made my own. It was not very hard and it has worked good so far. I will order an OEM one next week to replace this one but if anyone has the happen to them it is easy enough to make one to get you by.

Keeping my fingers crossed for now for no rain tomorrow so I can test my work.

Box

 

[kenmac]

I hope the head solves your problem. The only palce to go is down & I mean the block. Is there a coolant hose comming off the block somewhere that returns to the radiator ?

 

[California]

Box, if you have any suspicion of a coolant/compression leak be sure to crank it over with the compression released to clear any water out of the cylinder, before actually starting it.

 

[kenmac]

Off subject. Cal, Did you find out what happened to norm ??

 

[California]

Off subject. Cal, Did you find out what happened to norm ??

No. I see he is continuing to post elsewhere so he seems to be ok, but that's all I know. Norm, come home! At least send a PM!

 

[mark777]

Box, if you have any suspicion of a coolant/compression leak be sure to crank it over with the compression released to clear any water out of the cylinder, before actually starting it.

Excellent point!

 

[Box]

Hello all,

Thanks for your input on this.

Kemac - yes there is a drain line that runs from the engine block to a block that ties into a drain for the radiator. I had not tought about that being a possible source of the compression leak back into the radiator, but your post has me thinking. I could plug off the hose that ties the drain line from the radiator to this block and see if it makes any difference.

California - I don't think any water is entering one of the cylinders. I ran the tractor today from 8:30 am to noon or so brush hogging abut 2.5 ac of 1' tall grass. The engine runs great and has power. The coolant temp gauge stayed at or beow the 1/2 way mark the whole time and even tough I could see bubbles entering the over flow bottle the bottle never over flowed as it was doing before I tore the engine down. So what I have done seems to have made a postive differnce in the performance of the tractor.

I took the advice of Sandfarmer (I think it was) and only filled the over flow bottle to the low mark and that seemed to prevent the bottle from over filling. As I stated before I am a bit baffeled by the air bubbles that I see in the cooling system, but I am begining to think that the real issue may be that the coolant system does not allow enough room for expansion. On the larger diesel engines we service at work we always allow 15% for expansion. Granted these are a lot larger (15 to 60 liter ) engines but the rules of thumb should be more or less the same.

So for now I am going to monitor the engine when ever I use the tractor and see if anything changes. I still have no mixing of fluids, oil in water or water in oil and other than the air bubbles I mentioned before everything seems to be in order. That is way I am so baffeled. If the engine was running hot, had problems starting or seemed to be low on power I would be more concerned than I am. I plan to do a compression test on the engine as soon as we get moved into our new home. Right now I keep the tractor at my new place so I only work it on the weekends for the most part.

I will keep puzzeling over this in mean while.

Thanks for your input

box

 

[kenmac]

No. I see he is continuing to post elsewhere so he seems to be ok, but that's all I know. Norm, come home! At least send a PM!

How do you know he's posting some where ?? Do you mean another forum ?? I haven't seen him post on any topics on this forum

 

[kenmac]

Box, I didn't know if all tractors had this coolant line or not that's why I asked. I know my 3110 does.