How Would You Fix This Bridge?

[IH3444]

There was talk about Mud Turtles. But we had none.

https://a-z-animals.com/blog/the-complete-list-of-all-13-turtles-found-in-pennsylvania/

 

[bdhsfz6]

Our access is an ancient 2 track logging trail that snakes its way across many 40++ acre parcels up the side of a canyon. The trail is private with easements in the deeds protecting landowner's access. There is no responsible authority other than the 'tradition' that every land owner maintains the trail within their parcel's boundaries. And that's a joke because nobody but the wife and I are the only ones who live on site. All the rest are non-resident landowners who show up a few times per year to do things that are just plain illegal and not allowed in the city. Many landowners never even show up. And then there's the BIA tribal set aside lands, F&W, DNR, etc who are the absolute most worthless 'neighbors'. In other words, most everyone thinks because we have a house, outbuildings (not rodent infested campers or shacks on stilts) and equipment, anything needed should be done by us. It's the only way in and out for everyone and of course nobody has any money (yeah, right).

The trail had two ancient bridges built by logging companies that were completely replaced at a tribe's expense and it wasn't because of access to the BIA lands. It was because the streams are tributaries to 'protected' waterway for endangered fish.

I'm just mentioning this because if you can find an endangered fish, toad, squirrel, mouse or even usual and accustomed root plants and herbal medicines, you might be surprised at the sudden cooperation money that can appear quickly. Including tear out and the rebuild to standards you can't even begin to imagine. The cost for the project to tear out and replace both bridges exceeded $1,250,000 and those new bridges can easily support any water tender/fire fighting equipment, concrete truck (but they won't deliver here), crane that could ever be encountered. And it doesn't have to be tribal (but that would help) but ANY non-profit, NGO, etc.

So you need some imagination on this project. You might be surprised at what can happen at zero cost to you or your neighbors. You can use the environmentalists and save the world types to your advantage, maybe?

All good advice, thanks.

It turns out, one of the landowners, who lives on site, is a township supervisor. She is constantly on the lookout for possible funding sources, but so far, no luck.

 

[bdhsfz6]

There was talk about Mud Turtles. But we had none.

https://a-z-animals.com/blog/the-complete-list-of-all-13-turtles-found-in-pennsylvania/

Finding an endangered species in the stream could work against us. The way the DEP works around here, I wouldn't be surprised if they forced us to remove the bridge. I swear they were trained by the Gestapo.

 

[JRH02]

Finding an endangered species in the stream could work against us. The way the DEP works around here, I wouldn't be surprised if they forced us to remove the bridge. I swear they were trained by the Gestapo.

Not to disagree with you but if it was me I'd be trapping some critters and setting them loose or transplanting some posies and take some pictures of the stuff right at the bridge. I'd have no trouble sleeping at night either knowing I helped some environmental types find a project that they can brag about.

 

[bdhsfz6]

Not to disagree with you but if it was me I'd be trapping some critters and setting them loose or transplanting some posies and take some pictures of the stuff right at the bridge. I'd have no trouble sleeping at night either knowing I helped some environmental types find a project that they can brag about.

Wouldn't finding such a species just make the DEP permit process tougher? I've never heard of any organizations around here that would provide funding for a bridge project like this.

 

[2manyrocks]

Finding anything endangered would seem to add an additional layer of crazy complexity.

More likely the regs have been written without regard to practical cost for homeowners and only a land developer who can absorb and pass on the costs can comply with them.

Also have a suspicion that contractors use the regs as a justification to increase their bids and the presence of the regs and enforcement practices probably keep other people who would otherwise be qualified from even bidding the work. If this wasn't the reality of the situation, I suspect you'd have already replaced the pipe and this thread wouldn't exist but for all the regulations?

 

[JRH02]

I AM interested in the input of others especially when it is from direct experience in a similar type of project.

 

[ruffdog]

All good advice, thanks.

It turns out, one of the landowners, who lives on site, is a township supervisor. She is constantly on the lookout for possible funding sources, but so far, no luck.

......and I would assume the funding for little private projects like the bridge is drying up very quickly. A year ago, federal funding for our fire station simply disappeared.... vanished.

 

[2manyrocks]

Another consideration is what happens when the existing pipe fails? Is there a permitting process? How long does it take? Is a contractor going to jack the bid even higher because the contractor knows it has to be replaced?

 

[MattB4]

Another consideration is what happens when the existing pipe fails? Is there a permitting process? How long does it take? Is a contractor going to jack the bid even higher because the contractor knows it has to be replaced?

It actually might become much easier to fix if a complete failure occurs. It then becomes immediate rather than theoretical.

 

[paulsharvey]

Ok, didnt make it far down, so dont shoot me...

You could price CIPP, cured in place pipe; its expensive, and requires the original pipe to not be crushed. Never seen any 72" lined like that. CIPP is 100% a contractor job, Insituform, or other specialized contractor; not DIY or even local contractor.

Another option, May, be grout injection. It could be more complex then it sounds; but would likely involve some form work inside, and core drill through the road to inject "non excavatable flow able fill" to fill the void.

There are chemical injection foams, if its just joints leaking, but if the pipe is rusted through, or crushed, not going to work.

another option, may be from the inside of the pipe, injecting a grout through the bad areas of the pipe.

Another option, excavate down to the pipe, one side at a time; wrap the existing pipe in a filter fabric, and pour a healthy ammount of flow able fill around the pipe. Even a concrete collar. You can find a detail if you Google FDOT Standard Plans Dissimilar Pipe Collar.

 

[paulsharvey]

In my area, neither the state nor county will take over a road until you upgrade to their standards.

Right, makes sense. However you first need to get all the property owners on board/signed up (subject to upgrade costs). Then you can get the public entity to specify what needs to be done to satisfy their minimum standard(s).

You might want to contact the politicians you elected to get them on your side. Many love the opportunity to add another Favor Done Feather in their cap. Our guy writes of constituents aided every month and keeps a dollar tally!

Once you have all the facts, you are in a much better position to to say "yes" to a solution. re there any similar roads in your neck o the wood that have been adopted by the county or state?

Do you have open county commission meetings? Are the videotaped and rebroadcast on CABLE or YouTube? Is there a Public Comment on each agenda?
Do you still have a local newspaper? (Is it owned by Sinclair?)

County would likely require a Lot more than the pipe replaced to accept maintenance. Think 2 12 ft lanes, stripping, signage, ect. No idea length, or households served, but figure a min of $250,000/mile in upgrades, not counting the pipe/embankment.

 

[paulsharvey]

So to be clear, there are several other owners that use the bridge but they expect just you to fix this? I say screw em and let it wash out, then they will probably be begging for you to help them. Thats a bad situation to be in. We looked at a house once that had a private road with several houses using it. I asked him how the road maintenance was handled and he said everybody just “gets together”. We didn’t consider it.

Our road is about 70 properties, with a private dirt road. In years past, they took up something like $50/property per month, and hired an actual contractor to grade it, periodically. My understanding, at some point, they stopped using the money for that, and someone just pocketed it, so now, nothing.

I have mixed feelings on it; so, there are roughly 30 homes, 2 roofing companies, and exotic animal sanctuary/zoo, 2 HVAC companies; on the road, so; figure, probably around 200ish trips per day. Thats too much for an unmaintained road. At the same time; if the county (in our case counties, as the first 7 properties are in my county, and the other like 63 are in next county) Took maintenance, they would charge something in the neighborhood of $18,000 to pave the road; enforceable as a special tax assessment. They are pretty easy going on that, with 3 options. #1, you pay $18k. Option 2, you pay $9,500 this year, and $9500 next year (in addition to property tax). Option 3; they seize your home.

Also, worst case, they do the 1 county; me and 6 others pay; and next counties citizens get the benefit....

At the same time; if it comes up; maybe... Thats a lot of money, and it comes with disadvantages too; speeding, drag racing, dumping trash and dogs, so... mixed feelings, but asphalt is nice. (or chip seal)

 

[paulsharvey]

Some local agencies divide the cost by properties, others by road frontage. Road frontage method would Screw me.

As a note; normally takes like 70% vote, or something similar, and you pay regardless of your vote.

 

[airbiscuit]

Our road is about 70 properties, , ...there are roughly 30 homes, 2 roofing companies, and exotic animal sanctuary/zoo, 2 HVAC companies; on the road, so; figure, probably around 200ish trips per day. Thats too much for an unmaintained road. ...

???

 

[airbiscuit]

So does someone periodically grade/drag your road?

 

[JRH02]

I can say with about every response to this thread is I am gladder by the moment to live far past the last mile with zero services (but with fire [county and wildfire crews], EMS, Sheriff), no utilities, no cell signal, no mail or any delivery, no Google car's, no formal organizations and no outside view of what is happening anywhere through the canyons and high prairies even if they can see through the trees. Of course it comes with a few complexities like being responsible for EVERYTHING on my own. But then I have no one to blame, either, do I? I rather like not relying on other people and gov't 'services'. And I'm a pretty beat up disabled 70+yo who lived pretty hard. And the wife and I are of small frame so there's no easy to access big young guys to jump on a pry bar or a shovel when needed.

But this is about a deteriorated bridge repair/replacement for a few folks on a road. There's a lot not known. Maybe a group of Somali families can help with some funding resources? BTW, the trap and replanting thing was also a joke.

 

[paulsharvey]

So does someone periodically grade/drag your road?

I have a couple times, two other guys will on occasion, but generally, no. It needs fresh clay or limerock, but nobody is going to spend money. Pushing or pulling sand doesnt really do much good.

 

[paulsharvey]

View attachment 5473291 ???

Not far off. They have several tigers, a leopard, an African lion (that I hear from the back porch when hes ready for breakfest and dinner), a Syrian brown bear, a jaguar,.and i see on the website, they recently got atleast one hyena.

I actually forgot, seperate from that, there is also an exotic reptile/snake rescue too; completely unrelated to the lion place.

As far as I know, they only had one worker get eaten at the lion place.

 

[paulsharvey]

Just to do the "main" road, 2.4 miles, at only 18 ft wide, 6" base, 1.5" of asphalt; thats probably right around the $300k in base (material, compaction, and grading), and about $400k in asphalt (installed); so a Cheap price, figure $805,000. Thats not creating ditches, doing any pipes, any shoulder work, driveway turn outs, signage, stripping, water retention.

Road work is expensive. Commercial access, with right turn lane, can easily be $300k.

Edit: I am aware that 300+400 does not equal $805. I threw 15% for traffic control, erosion control, and maybe a painted double yellow centerline.