How Would You Fix This Bridge?

/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #121  
Oh my God, I feel for you!
The bridge was built in 1913 by dumping fill over a 6' diameter steel pipe, which is rotting away. The span over the pipe is around 20' to get to solid ground on either side. There is 36" of fill on top of the pipe, topped with 6" of modified gravel. Water is running beside the pipe and undermining what's left of it. As a result, the downstream side (left in pics 2 & 3), is subsiding. The aerial photo is north up orientation and the stream flow is top to bottom.

It's a private road, used by only a few property owners with limited resources. Contractor estimates to replace it with a 6' poly pipe are upward of $50K, which we can't afford. The price is elevated by DEP regulations which require the stream to be diverted during construction. The only way to do this is with large pumps. Stream flow and environmental impact studies prepared by a certified engineer are also required. Construction is made more difficult by overhead transmission lines.

The "cheap" fixes we've been looking at include using flatbed rail cars to span the pipe, or perhaps a 20' reinforced concrete slab. To avoid DEP regulations, anything we do can't disturb the stream.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Oh my God, I feel for you!
The bridge was built in 1913 by dumping fill over a 6' diameter steel pipe, which is rotting away. The span over the pipe is around 20' to get to solid ground on either side. There is 36" of fill on top of the pipe, topped with 6" of modified gravel. Water is running beside the pipe and undermining what's left of it. As a result, the downstream side (left in pics 2 & 3), is subsiding. The aerial photo is north up orientation and the stream flow is top to bottom.

It's a private road, used by only a few property owners with limited resources. Contractor estimates to replace it with a 6' poly pipe are upward of $50K, which we can't afford. The price is elevated by DEP regulations which require the stream to be diverted during construction. The only way to do this is with large pumps. Stream flow and environmental impact studies prepared by a certified engineer are also required. Construction is made more difficult by overhead transmission lines.

The "cheap" fixes we've been looking at include using flatbed rail cars to span the pipe, or perhaps a 20' reinforced concrete slab. To avoid DEP regulations, anything we do can't disturb the stream.

Any ideas or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

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Oh my God, I feel for you! Years ago, I knew a woman who had a bridge with two really large (8’?) diameter corrugated galvanizedculverts that were encased by concrete and rubble fill. The pipes rusted out at the bottom, and the water was causing the rubble fill to fall into the water. I told her “you have GOT to get that bridge fixed!” ended up costing $30,000 and I’m pretty sure her father paid for it. I really feel for you. In her case, she didn’t have any such onerous DEP stipulations.
I’m praying for you. I hope you can get it done as inexpensively as possible.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #122  
One thing I learned from watching the high water flow through the two 5' concrete culverts on the creek behind our place is that once you add flow restrictions you have to WAY over size things due to various forms of flow restriction. I've seen the tailwater out of them be at not much more than half full when it's already topping the road over them due to inlet restrictions/friction. I found the disparity to be real interesting and did a little reading and it's a significand design challenge. Bridges can have similar problems once you hit peak flows if there are restrictive abutments, etc.. but in general you need less slack than you do with a culvert system.

In light of that I would add that if you can pull the culvert and put in a bridge that would have a lot less flow restriction overall and might be easier to size/engineer the thing.. especially something prebuilt like one of the railway flatcars (I see those for $10-15k BUT you'd also need to built abutments, etc.. so the final total cost would be quite a bit more .. but it'd drop in pretty fast anyway).

I'd also be a bit wary of what would happen moving from a 6' to a 5' opening by sleeving it.. you already have overtopping problems and IMHO (I'm not a hydrologist.. I just like looking at the creek in the rain and observed some things..) that could make that a lot worse.
"I'd also be a bit wary of what would happen moving from a 6' to a 5' opening by sleeving it.."

The OP already said it's partially sleeved with a 5' pipe. The 6' pipe is now limited to a 5' opening. Sleeve the rest of the pipe and be done.

Bill the neighbors for the work you've already done and see what happens.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#123  
"I'd also be a bit wary of what would happen moving from a 6' to a 5' opening by sleeving it.."

The OP already said it's partially sleeved with a 5' pipe. The 6' pipe is now limited to a 5' opening. Sleeve the rest of the pipe and be done.

Bill the neighbors for the work you've already done and see what happens.
The 6' pipe is now deformed and sleeving the rest isn't possible unless we went with something much smaller. The DEP would also consider this stream encroachment and wouldn't permit it. Doing it on the sly would be risky since working in the stream bed would muddy the water and tip them off for sure.

Billing the neighbors is a joke. I just put notices in all the mailboxes asking for their share of the $655 concrete bill for the last repair. $655 / 14 = $47.50 each. I'll be lucky if 3 or 4 respond.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #124  
Billing the neighbors is a joke. I just put notices in all the mailboxes asking for their share of the $655 concrete bill for the last repair. $655 / 14 = $47.50 each. I'll be lucky if 3 or 4 respond.
What a shame. I could not just ignore other land owners trying to fix "our" only entrance. Good for you for trying.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #125  
Look into forming a special improvement district. Typically the county would establish a special improvement district for the culvert replacement, and then the users of the access would be assessed the cost over the next twenty or twenty-five years, to cover the cost and the interest on the cost based on County bonds. Cost more in the long run, but spreads the cost out. And, while you can't force other users into the repair, the county can.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #126  
I'm thinking since there are three of you now y'all could go around to the other neighbors and simple say we're having a meeting at one house early one evening. Once everyone is there explain the situation and fact that since everyone uses the road it's only fair expenses divided evenly.
As someone mentioned it will increase the value of everyone's home and has to be done.
I really like this one bridge posted but if the six foot pipe lasted over a century just replace it. In one day it can be excavated & new 6ft put in. Longer, like 30ft with rip rap tapered down would be much better.
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/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #127  
I think many don't understand the way a culvert like this fails. The lower part that is in the water all the time rusts out. I can get photos in a day or two and show an example. (When the water stops flowing) This happens slowly but what happens in time is the water flow begins to cut around the culvert. As this happens over usually a period of years there is no "catastrophic" failure like a bridge washing out typically. There are exceptions of course such as extreme rainfall events. What you generally see happen is a "dip" develops in the roadway. Usually subtle at first and then progressively getting worse. What they are dealing with now is the "worse". Every heavy rain excavates more material. They might be slowly covering the issue with the concrete pours in stages. The OP stated that is continues to settle and that's the issue.

I don't know what you are willing to invest or what a new 5 or 6 foot tube would cost. I think if you were inclined to go that way I'd look into having someone with a decent sized excavator like a Cat 320 to work by the hour and dig it out and lay a new tube in. Get someone with a reputation for being a good operator and see if they will operate on a by the hour rate. You would need rock stockpiled and the tube there of course. I help the local township and have been on a few culvert replacements. One the dig was like 15 foot deep from the road surface. No we weren't dealing with concrete blobs but that's still a lot of material to excavate. We still had it filled back in and smooth by the end of the day. I don't remember how many loads of gravel I hauled in the tandem but it was at least 6 as I recall. Because it was a big job, instead of trying to do it with the backhoe (Cat 420) which I am not sure it could have even physically completed a local contractor did the excavation.

Or look into renting a track hoe from United Rental or Sunbelt or whoever is in your area if you think you can do it yourself. It's so easy telling someone else how to spend their money.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #128  
For those that haven’t read the OP’s supplied info, an agency is requiring the creek be bypassed for any construction. This agency is the one driving up the cost somewhat and keeping it from just being dug out and replaced.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #129  
Curious what would happen if all neighbors got together working on it. For 911 access, ambulance, police have to use it. Would environmentalists be able to have 10 people arrested? I bet once work started no one would say anything.
This may be where contacting that area Congressman would be beneficial especially from the standpoint of public assistance, 911 call access.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #130  
In our area after hurricane Ivan all permitting and engineering drawing requirements were suspended for 30 days so people could get their culverts, bridges, roadways back into passable condition. A 3-foot culvert was washed out around and eroded the roadway. We hired a contractor and had a 5-foot diameter plastic dual wall polyethylene corrugated solid pipe installed. Contractor called Slip-Stream pipe. Suppose to flow 10% more water due to being smooth on inner wall.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #131  
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I really like this one bridge posted but if the six foot pipe lasted over a century just replace it. .......................View attachment 5473194View attachment 5473195
This bridge didn't magically appear one day. Time passed between the time my FIL offered to sell us some land in the mid 80's and the day we broke ground in late 1989. The land had to be subdivided off his one farm. Seemed like an awful lot of red tape, approvals and meetings upon meetings till we finally got the OK to start. The plan was to have four lots so he could eventually sell to three other family members if they wanted them. We built on the West lot and my one BIL built on the East lot a few years later.

There are two bridges. They're built on the property lines of the the outer "pairs" of lots so two bridges serve four lots. Pop said the first kid who builds a house needs to build the bridge and then negotiate with another who builds next door. After more than 20 years later no family members were interested in the center two lots, so my BIL and I checked into buying the two center lots and each taking a part of the neighboring lot for a buffer and selling what was left as one lot in the center. When we received a quote for the cost of engineering / approval / etc that idea was dropped. We each bought the lot adjacent to our properties.

But back to the bridge. As mentioned, the engineer designed the bridges to take big loads. The 16' wide bore was determined by flood data and runoff studies. Oddly, the creek comes through a 4 foot "squash pipe" under the road less than 100' West of our West boundary. There's also a very small culvert under the road that dumps into the creek on our property.

The engineering study indicated that the effect of the two bridges in the flood plain were negated by taking a bend out of the creek. That was a win because it allowed building the bridge on dry land, then moving the stream channel. My BIL built a few years after that and the stream wasn't relocated for his bridge. IIRC, his contractor did a pump-around. When the creek floods, the difference in the elevation of the water upstream of the bridge and downstream of the bridge is not noticeable.

I priced the material for the bridge (think it was a bit over $1K just for the rebar at the time) and I forget how much for the concrete. I was seriously considering building it myself. It has footers down something like 9' and a 12" foundation. Our builder was slow at the time and gave us a price that made it look like he was just doing it for fun. That made it an easy decision. I already had a lot of work to do. My only involvement with the bridge construction was getting Sonotube for the builder to split and make the radiused side forms easier. Good plywood salvaged from the formwork became our attic floor.

Our contract with the builder was only for masonry, framing, insulation, siding, roofing, finish carpentry and drywall. I hired the excavator, cabinet guy and painter. I did the electrical (complete with concrete duct bank under the creek for utilities), security system, central vacuum, phone wiring, underslab drain to daylight, sound system rough-in. Borrowed a mole and compressor from work to get across the road to the water main that runs into town. I also did the plumbing and HVAC with help from a plumber/HVAC guy who returned the favor for helping him with the electrical on his new house about 4 years earlier. This was before digital pics, internet, tractor boards etc. It would have been an interesting thread.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#132  
Curious what would happen if all neighbors got together working on it. For 911 access, ambulance, police have to use it. Would environmentalists be able to have 10 people arrested? I bet once work started no one would say anything.
This may be where contacting that area Congressman would be beneficial especially from the standpoint of public assistance, 911 call access.
About 8 years ago, there were 6 of us working on the bridge filling holes. Some of the fill we used ran into the stream causing it to run brown. The DEP showed up and ordered us to stop work until a permit was issued and proper remediation measures were taken. We were told the sheriff would be called if we didn't comply. I don't know if anyone would have been arrested, but we didn't chance it. We finished the work the following Sunday with no problem.

That was 8 years ago and it's a different neighborhood today. Now we're lucky to have two people show up to do the work.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#133  
In our area after hurricane Ivan all permitting and engineering drawing requirements were suspended for 30 days so people could get their culverts, bridges, roadways back into passable condition. A 3-foot culvert was washed out around and eroded the roadway. We hired a contractor and had a 5-foot diameter plastic dual wall polyethylene corrugated solid pipe installed. Contractor called Slip-Stream pipe. Suppose to flow 10% more water due to being smooth on inner wall.
During Ivan here in this part of PA, the DEP permit process wasn't suspended. Instead, they issued emergency permits which required a minimum amount of paperwork. The finished work still had to meet their specs though.

Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, our bridge sustained only minor damage, and was easily repaired without DEP involvement.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #134  
During Ivan here in this part of PA, the DEP permit process wasn't suspended. Instead, they issued emergency permits which required a minimum amount of paperwork. The finished work still had to meet their specs though.

Fortunately, or maybe unfortunately, our bridge sustained only minor damage, and was easily repaired without DEP involvement.
Put game cameras on both ends and record the traffic flow. Then print up a flyer for everyone in the neighborhood, explaining that they are using your crossing, that it is failing, and they need to step up and help with financing a solution.

Edit to add: Be sure to stress that it is not a county roadway. It exists on an easement across your land and crossing at the creek. So, the users have responsibilities for the maintenance. If you can afford it get an attorney involved.
 
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/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #136  
Put game cameras on both ends and record the traffic flow. Then print up a flyer for everyone in the neighborhood, explaining that they are using your crossing, that it is failing, and they need to step up and help with financing a solution.

Edit to add: Be sure to stress that it is not a county roadway. It exists on an easement across your land and crossing at the creek. So, the users have responsibilities for the maintenance. If you can afford it get an attorney involved.
The problem with that is, I'm sure there a deeded access recorded with the properties.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#137  
Put game cameras on both ends and record the traffic flow. Then print up a flyer for everyone in the neighborhood, explaining that they are using your crossing, that it is failing, and they need to step up and help with financing a solution.

Edit to add: Be sure to stress that it is not a county roadway. It exists on an easement across your land and crossing at the creek. So, the users have responsibilities for the maintenance. If you can afford it get an attorney involved.
This has been tried in various ways over the years and we've even taken a couple to court where they just plead poverty. Judges around here always seem to favor the "underdog" and dismiss the case.

Admittedly, most around here don't have much and aren't able to contribute. Still, there are a few who subscribe to the "get something for nothing" philosophy.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#138  
Let the people choose......pay not or get tolled to cross.
I assume you're joking.

As much as we would like to try this, it's considered a public access road and doing so would be against the law.
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge?
  • Thread Starter
#139  
The problem with that is, I'm sure there a deeded access recorded with the properties.
Yes there is.

It is also written in the deeds that "all property owners will share equally in road maintenance". Unfortunately, lawyers tell us this clause is not legally enforceable in court. It's left up to local HOA's & property owner associations to enforce.

It should be noted that there are thousands of subdivisions in rural PA that face these same problems. The cause is the lack of requirements placed on subdividers in many townships. Even today, they are not held to the same standards as those in urban and suburban locales.

Unfortunately, the outcome is always the same. It's the "can & will do's" that pick up the slack for the "can't & won't do's".
 
/ How Would You Fix This Bridge? #140  
Our access is an ancient 2 track logging trail that snakes its way across many 40++ acre parcels up the side of a canyon. The trail is private with easements in the deeds protecting landowner's access. There is no responsible authority other than the 'tradition' that every land owner maintains the trail within their parcel's boundaries. And that's a joke because nobody but the wife and I are the only ones who live on site. All the rest are non-resident landowners who show up a few times per year to do things that are just plain illegal and not allowed in the city. Many landowners never even show up. And then there's the BIA tribal set aside lands, F&W, DNR, etc who are the absolute most worthless 'neighbors'. In other words, most everyone thinks because we have a house, outbuildings (not rodent infested campers or shacks on stilts) and equipment, anything needed should be done by us. It's the only way in and out for everyone and of course nobody has any money (yeah, right).

The trail had two ancient bridges built by logging companies that were completely replaced at a tribe's expense and it wasn't because of access to the BIA lands. It was because the streams are tributaries to 'protected' waterway for endangered fish.

I'm just mentioning this because if you can find an endangered fish, toad, squirrel, mouse or even usual and accustomed root plants and herbal medicines, you might be surprised at the sudden cooperation money that can appear quickly. Including tear out and the rebuild to standards you can't even begin to imagine. The cost for the project to tear out and replace both bridges exceeded $1,250,000 and those new bridges can easily support any water tender/fire fighting equipment, concrete truck (but they won't deliver here), crane that could ever be encountered. And it doesn't have to be tribal (but that would help) but ANY non-profit, NGO, etc.

So you need some imagination on this project. You might be surprised at what can happen at zero cost to you or your neighbors. You can use the environmentalists and save the world types to your advantage, maybe?
 
 
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