5035 running out of fuel

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Hi All,
Happy Spring!

Long time member here with minimal posts as my 5035 has been rock solid since purchase in 2011.
With only 310 hrs on the clock, that may be why.

However, little problems are now happening with the fuel system.
This winter, the engine just stopped while idling after having sat for most of the summer.
Turns out the fuel return line was leaking badly due to a defective factory crimp but I couldn't see it behind the lower engine cover panel. I proceeded to change out the fuel filter after 300 hrs even though the manual says 500 hrs. After the swap, I saw the leak which wasn't visible right away... it had to dribble down the black braided nylon covering before starting to drip.

After some research, I found Mahindra had a recall on the crimp-style fuel lines on my model. Too late for me to get the job done free, so I repaired the line using a Dremel tool to cut the crimp off (carefully) and replaced the line with a good quality rubber fuel hose, then threw away the screw type hose clamp and replaced it with two Stainless Steel Single Ear Hose Clamps. Mission accomplished.

A month later while plowing after a snowstorm (hadn't had a need for big red until then), she just plain died during moderate travel speed. Waited 20 minutes and started right up. Couldn't see a leak anywhere. Called my dealer, $274 later the mechanic said he believed he hound the culprit. A loose hose clamp at the tank (very hard to get to) where he found the line to be moist. Before he left I heard him start the engine and ran it for about 5 mins. Fixed,... or so I thought.

Started the engine today and let it idle for about 20 minutes while I cleaned out the garage. I then noticed the engine had stopped on its own. Tried to start it. Nothing.
Thinking there was air in the line, I pumped the primer button on top of the fuel filter housing. It Felt soft,.. like there was air in there so kept pumping until I felt resistance. Turned the key...started right up.

I can't find any leaks. Seems the gas flow from the tank is restricted and can't keep up with the engine's fuel need via the filter housing. I am guessing the fuel flow from the tank isn't strong enough and is not keeping the filter housing full.
After pumping the primer (?) the filter/housing fills up again, the engine starts with issue and has plenty of power.... until the fuel runs out again.
Commence hair pulling!

Note: I am very cautious about keeping the screen filter in place when adding fuel since new, but my tractor was a demo and had 10 hours on the clock when I bought it. Perhaps a careless employee filled the tank with dirty diesel form a container that had sediment in it without the screen in place? This dealer seems to have a high employee turnover rate...

Could the screen in the tank have debris blocking it? If so, how the heck do I get to it? I can't seem to find a factory service manual anywhere.

Appreciate any and all input.
Thanks.
New guy

 

[jb1390]

I'm not sure on the 5035, but my 3550 (common rail) had an issue with the tank cap not properly venting. It caused the tank to collapse a couple times. One time was fixed under warranty, the second time, I blew it back up with compressed air and modified the cap so it breathes better. Mahindra came out with an updated cap. That issue would cause a hard start, especially after running for a while then shutting off.

After it stalls, have you removed the cap to see if you can hear air rush in? Maybe the rubber swelled over time, and the cap is sealing too tight. Worth at least checking.

On the fuel filter - there are 2 filters I believe, one on the frame by the front wheel, and the other on the motor. At least that's how mine is set up. That lower one fills up with sediment and a bit of water. I've changed that one a couple times since 2014. I have never touched the other one. If you haven't done the one by the wheel, I'd suggest pulling that housing off and cleaning it.

I also wonder from your description whether this is a fuel issue at all. If the system does pull in air, I'm a little surprised that it would start right back up like you described during the snowstorm. I'd expect it to need some priming. I'd also expect that once it's running, it would probably stay running, at least at idle. I recently was chasing an issue that I thought at first was fuel - hard starting. But it turned out the ignition switch had gone bad. It would maintain contact until you tried to start it, at which point contact was intermittent. So sometimes after cranking for a little while, it would fire up. The clue there was that my dash lights would go out. Once I noticed that happening, it was clear it wasn't fuel. While chasing that down though (and suspecting it was a fuel issue), I found that the primer wasn't always tight. Even though it had fuel. Since at first I suspected fuel, I did check the fuel lines by pulling tank (easy enough once the rear tire is out of the way), and providing a small amount of air pressure through a regulator. If you have leaks, that should show it. But I wouldn't discount something else causing this issue.

 

[RjCorazza]

You could try disconnecting the fuel line before the filter and check the flow there. Blow low pressure air back through the line if the flow is restricted. If there is junk in the tank, you will need to drain the tank and swab it out through the fill port or something similar.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

I'm not sure on the 5035, but my 3550 (common rail) had an issue with the tank cap not properly venting. It caused the tank to collapse a couple times. One time was fixed under warranty, the second time, I blew it back up with compressed air and modified the cap so it breathes better. Mahindra came out with an updated cap. That issue would cause a hard start, especially after running for a while then shutting off.

After it stalls, have you removed the cap to see if you can hear air rush in? Maybe the rubber swelled over time, and the cap is sealing too tight. Worth at least checking.

On the fuel filter - there are 2 filters I believe, one on the frame by the front wheel, and the other on the motor. At least that's how mine is set up. That lower one fills up with sediment and a bit of water. I've changed that one a couple times since 2014. I have never touched the other one. If you haven't done the one by the wheel, I'd suggest pulling that housing off and cleaning it.

I also wonder from your description whether this is a fuel issue at all. If the system does pull in air, I'm a little surprised that it would start right back up like you described during the snowstorm. I'd expect it to need some priming. I'd also expect that once it's running, it would probably stay running, at least at idle. I recently was chasing an issue that I thought at first was fuel - hard starting. But it turned out the ignition switch had gone bad. It would maintain contact until you tried to start it, at which point contact was intermittent. So sometimes after cranking for a little while, it would fire up. The clue there was that my dash lights would go out. Once I noticed that happening, it was clear it wasn't fuel. While chasing that down though (and suspecting it was a fuel issue), I found that the primer wasn't always tight. Even though it had fuel. Since at first I suspected fuel, I did check the fuel lines by pulling tank (easy enough once the rear tire is out of the way), and providing a small amount of air pressure through a regulator. If you have leaks, that should show it. But I wouldn't discount something else causing this issue.

The cap issue was covered when I had the initial problem due to the leak. I have left the cap loose to test that theory but no change. I had retightened it, then loosened when it stalled this time, but did not detect any air rushing in when doing so.

The second filter is something that I didn't know about. I looked at the parts listing on the Bill's Tractor website but didn't see a second filter. I will look into that.

You make a good point of the engine restarting without priming back in the winter. But to clarify, she sat for about 20 minutes before it would start up again. Before that, she just turned over without a hint of firing up.
After warming up a bit, I went back outside and gave the key a turn and she started right up. No priming needed. And it ran well enough to get it back in the garage. That's when I called the dealer..
I didn't know about the primer at that time and actually had called the dealer thinking it had died and needed service. If I had known about the primer pump, that may have enabled the engine to start but it was the first time I've ever had any issue with starting big red during the 11 years of ownership.

I do have some experience in auto maintenance, repair, and restoration so I'm not a complete newbie. The fact that the engine stops during idle is perplexing and has me stumped since there are no apparent fuel leaks on the floor, which would let air in the system.
FYI: The last time I used it for snow removal and kept it moving, (after having to prime the filter housing with the pump for initial startup after the mechanic visit.. wasn't happy about that!) ran for about an hour and I was able to complete the job without failure.
The only issues I've had with hard starting seem to be fuel related since once I was sure the filter housing was full (via the small bleed screw at the top of the filter housing) startup was enabled every time.

It may come down to removing the rear tire to see what's going on at the tank.
I do have an auto lift rated at 10k lbs which may help if that's the case but i hope to avoid that job until there's nothing else to troubleshoot.
The mechanic said the tank can be moved forward for fuel tank line access without removing the rear wheel by loosening the straps but i can't readily see how to do that. More research....

Thanks for your input JB.
I'll document my progress here.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

You could try disconnecting the fuel line before the filter and check the flow there. Blow low pressure air back through the line if the flow is restricted. If there is junk in the tank, you will need to drain the tank and swab it out through the fill port or something similar.

Thats a good option Rj. I'll give it a try.
I'll let you know if blowing air into the tank improves static fuel flow.

Does anyone know if there is a legitimate service manual available for this model Mahindra which includes troubleshooting steps and a detailed parts listing with illustrations?

 

[jb1390]

The cap issue was covered when I had the initial problem due to the leak. I have left the cap loose to test that theory but no change. I had retightened it, then loosened when it stalled this time, but did not detect any air rushing in when doing so.

The second filter is something that I didn't know about. I looked at the parts listing on the Bill's Tractor website but didn't see a second filter. I will look into that.

You make a good point of the engine restarting without priming back in the winter. But to clarify, she sat for about 20 minutes before it would start up again. Before that, she just turned over without a hint of firing up.
After warming up a bit, I went back outside and gave the key a turn and she started right up. No priming needed. And it ran well enough to get it back in the garage. That's when I called the dealer..
I didn't know about the primer at that time and actually had called the dealer thinking it had died and needed service. If I had known about the primer pump, that may have enabled the engine to start but it was the first time I've ever had any issue with starting big red during the 11 years of ownership.

I do have some experience in auto maintenance, repair, and restoration so I'm not a complete newbie. The fact that the engine stops during idle is perplexing and has me stumped since there are no apparent fuel leaks on the floor, which would let air in the system.
FYI: The last time I used it for snow removal and kept it moving, (after having to prime the filter housing with the pump for initial startup after the mechanic visit.. wasn't happy about that!) ran for about an hour and I was able to complete the job without failure.
The only issues I've had with hard starting seem to be fuel related since once I was sure the filter housing was full (via the small bleed screw at the top of the filter housing) startup was enabled every time.

It may come down to removing the rear tire to see what's going on at the tank.
I do have an auto lift rated at 10k lbs which may help if that's the case but i hope to avoid that job until there's nothing else to troubleshoot.
The mechanic said the tank can be moved forward for fuel tank line access without removing the rear wheel by loosening the straps but i can't readily see how to do that. More research....

Thanks for your input JB.
I'll document my progress here.

Upon further review I'm not sure your machine has that second filter. Mine is a 3550, it's possible they added that filter when they changed the engine to Tier 4. I found a photo of the spot it's installed on mine, on a 5035 that was for sale, and there was nothing there.

I'm really wondering whether this is something electrical vs fuel. The engine sitting for a time should not make it easier to start if it's pulling in air. In fact, it should make it worse, since more time will give the fuel more of a chance to run back into the tank, pulling in air behind it.

By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air.

The suggestion to blow backwards through the line to clear obstructions is good advice. If you do that, and pressurize the lines from the tank to the pump with low pressure air, I think you could at least rule out fuel issues before moving on to other possibilities.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

Upon further review I'm not sure your machine has that second filter. Mine is a 3550, it's possible they added that filter when they changed the engine to Tier 4. I found a photo of the spot it's installed on mine, on a 5035 that was for sale, and there was nothing there.

I'm really wondering whether this is something electrical vs fuel. The engine sitting for a time should not make it easier to start if it's pulling in air. In fact, it should make it worse, since more time will give the fuel more of a chance to run back into the tank, pulling in air behind it.

By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air.

The suggestion to blow backwards through the line to clear obstructions is good advice. If you do that, and pressurize the lines from the tank to the pump with low pressure air, I think you could at least rule out fuel issues before moving on to other possibilities.

Thanks for the additional info.
I will try starting the engine with the lights on as I normally don't do so and wouldn't notice the lights going out. I hope it's that easy as I'm quite frustrated with the fuel thing, especially since the tractor has so few hours on it and I am quite cautious about keeping the screen at the top of the tank in place when fueling.

To clarify, the last time the engine stopped, the attempt to start it failed.
The only thing I did next was to pump the primer, which went from soft to firm in feel. Turned the key and she started right up. I can't explain it, except that perhaps there is a blockage in the tanks screen and there is not enough flow to keep the filter housing full.

However, what I don't understand is when all was running fine, the 5035 could sit for months, then start right up when the key was turned.
I do use the Ford Diesel octane boost additive under recommendation of my son in laws father. Without it, it can take several attempts to start the diesel, especially in cold weather. With the additive, regardless of temp, starts within 2-4 seconds. Currently I keep it in a garage that is heated and never goes below 45deg F.

I will try all suggestions and report back soon.
Thanks all for the suggestions.
If anyone else has any ideas, I'd like to hear them.
best
Gus

 

[DaBear3428]

did you check for contaminated fuel? diesel can grow stuff if left setting too long. The filters tend to catch the stuff become clogged then kill the engine, in the early stages if you let it set the fuel will slowly flow thru the compromised filter and fill the bowl the the engine will start and run for a few min then repeat the issue.

recommend draining/cleaning tank and replacing all fuel filters involved (even if new)

Good luck

 

[Fxfymn413]

My bet is you have something in the tank that is blocking the line. When it shuts down the vacuum created by the pump stops and the blockage floats away only to find its way back when fuel starts flowing again. Its happened to me a couple of times from using a farm tank.

MY suggestion is to drain the tank and check for foreign objects, like dead bugs, in the tank with a light or a bore scope. If you find anything you can use a turkey baster with a hose attached to try to get the items out.

 

[NewGuyInNewEngland]

"By chance, do you leave the lights on when starting? If you do, then watch them to see if they go out when you crank the key. On my 2014 3550, the potting on the ignition switch had separated, making intermittent contact. If you weren't watching the lights, it might have seemed like a fuel issue. My primer was soft as well, so I'm not sure that alone is strong evidence you're sucking in air."


Tried to start today in 72deg weather with all lights on for about 4 seconds. Lights stayed on but no start. Pumped primer. Started right up. Gotta be a fuel issue. thanks for the suggestions though.