Worth doing hay?

[VroomVroom]

I think I could plow, seed 100 acres of hayfield. I have tractors I can use but no hay equipment. Is this worth doing? I’d love to do it. Even if it just paid for itself at least for a few years. To buy second hand baker, none really that close. And unless it’s mini round or old square baker pretty expensive. I’m not sure what the dept of agriculture helps with. But I do think they may help pay for some. Not sure under what conditions I’ll have to give them a call one day. What’s your thoughts? First thing if fo is check around to see if I’d have buyers. I’m thinking the large farm nearby wouldn’t hesitate. But I’d likely be doing smaller balers which is a pain for handling. What’s your thoughts? How many acres in your experiences make it worth while after 3 years

 

[chim]

There are diary farms around here that rent land to grow extra crops to feed their cows and have a place to get rid of the manure. I'd be tempted to look into something like that before spending a lot of equipment.

 

[Hay Dude]

I think I could plow, seed 100 acres of hayfield. I have tractors I can use but no hay equipment. Is this worth doing? I’d love to do it. Even if it just paid for itself at least for a few years. To buy second hand baker, none really that close. And unless it’s mini round or old square baker pretty expensive. I’m not sure what the dept of agriculture helps with. But I do think they may help pay for some. Not sure under what conditions I’ll have to give them a call one day. What’s your thoughts? First thing if fo is check around to see if I’d have buyers. I’m thinking the large farm nearby wouldn’t hesitate. But I’d likely be doing smaller balers which is a pain for handling. What’s your thoughts? How many acres in your experiences make it worth while after 3 years

Had all the same questions decades ago and most told me “no, it’s not worth it”. You may be more in love with the idea of making hay than the actual reality of what kind of sacrifices it takes to make 100 acres of hay.

I started off with about 75 acres and have grown to over 500. Taken a lot of crap from buyers and been sold a few pieces of junk for equipment.

After about 20 years, you’ll learn a lot. Even though the money wasn’t what I thought, I was able to make business contacts for other related farm work. That helps tremendously.

There’s a lot more to explain to you than could be typed in this post, but if you are going to do it, I would look at these just for starters:

1: make sure your spouse knows what you are about to do. You are about to give up most of all your warm weather weekends and possibly several nights. Hay waits for no one. If your spouse doesn’t like the idea, weigh your marital issues of that against your hay-making dream.
2: get a list of local customers who will buy your hay. If you can’t come up with a reasonable list, then you need a way to dispose of hay that goes unsold.
3: The area you live in is damp & cool. Hay making days are fewer & further between than my area or warmer/sunnier climates. That will narrow your hay-making windows.
4: Tractors are important, buy I’d invest the most money in a great baler. It must work properly to make the bales. Just about any tractor will do.
5: Don’t quit your existing job. Plan on working “off-farm” to supplement your income. Figure on the first few years losing money.
6: You need to be able to fix the majority of equipment yourself and do maintenance yourself.

Most guys that farm on TBN are helpful. A few that do not poke fun at hay farming, saying things like “it’s as easy as mowing your lawn” or, “you’re just bundling grass clippings”. To those idiots, I’d like to bring them along for a week during the height of the season and see how long they last.

 

[Rockbadchild]

You will never make your investment after 3 years, seeds and fertilizer is expensive never mind equipment. If you plow the first year you wont get anything, the second you will get a marginal harvest, the third you are in business. At least that's my climate situation.

I made hay myself because I didn't want to depends on others for the supply and quality, to simply sell I would've never done it.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

I didn't do that scale of acres ... But I learned A LOT!

There so much more to haying than what I thought, which was ... "Grass grows, cut it, bale it a couple of days later ... "

Soil samples to start, you local ag extension guy can get you pointed in the right direction ... That will tell you what kind and how much of soil amendments you will need to get grass to grow, and what weeds won't like it ... Different grasses like different soil ... While technically alfalfa isn't a grass ... Others are ... Fescue grows naturally here in Missouri ... But there's Timothy, Orchard and others here, do you want some clover sprinkled in to help with nitrogen supplements?

Most importantly is who is gonna buy it? What do they want? I wanted "weed-free" hay ... But locals didn't want to pay for it, and were happy with 40%+ weeds, there cows would eat it, and didn't want to pay my premium, so in order to get rid of it, as I had no use for it, I had to drop my price to the local "weedy" hay price ...

If you're not doing it for yourself, you will need to find out what you can sell, before buying a baler ...

 

[VroomVroom]

Theres no doubt it be cheaper to rent it out. My father use to gay it in the 1970s-60s. My other issue umis I’m gone for three week rotations. So I’d be getting home to a three week period and be praying for good weather to mow it likely with a silkle bar. Not a mower I wouldn’t think. Likely a baker like the 1840 Massey probably. No doubt. I should make a few calls. To agriculture first to see what they offer. Then to buyers. That might tell me financially where I stand. Wish I could have hay’ed with them back then. But about the time I came up. Grandfather got sick and died and the family exploded. Cows shot, baking equipment left in the woods to rot. So it was before I was of age. They would gay one feild. It seems rough as the devil in the field. And it was 2 miles up the river to get there. I asked my uncle how the hrll they haul the bailer up there. He said a portion of the way up was a decent trail along the bank. And the portion up the side of the river didn’t seem as rough or rocky back then. But the did gave to cross the river pulling the square bailer. Not sure how it held up.

 

[Snobdds]

No it's not worth it. If you want any yield, it's a year round job.

We did a quick profit and loss on our property about 20 years ago. The breakeven point was something like 18 years. That was even on ground that was paid for. The amount of equipment needed for the variable tonnage price, is risky.

I don't mind risk either, but the potential to profit has to be there in 9/10 years. Most times in the haying business, profit only comes 4/10 years.


Now if your doing it to feed a heard, it does have more advantages.

 

[Hay Dude]

No it's not worth it. If you want any yield, it's a year round job.

We did a quick profit and loss on our property about 20 years ago. The breakeven point was something like 18 years. That was even on ground that was paid for. The amount of equipment needed for the variable tonnage price, is risky.

I don't mind risk either, but the potential to profit has to be there in 9/10 years. Most times in the haying business, profit only comes 4/10 years.


Now if your doing it to feed a heard, it does have more advantages.

To be fair, we don’t know what the guy is content with in terms of equipment.
New equipment? No way.
Clean/used/low hour? Probably not.
Older/somewhat worn? Maybe.

When you say “ground that was paid for”, yes that’s helpful, but what’s even more helpful is $0 rent ground. I don’t pay any rent. And by not owning, no taxes, either. Zero, zip, nada for land. I am expected to plow a few driveways on some of the properties, push fallen trees into the woods, etc. Pretty effortless. Many of my customers pay me for extra work like opening up new pasture, fence line reclamation, etc.
So I actually find that by not owning the land, the profit is better, as long as it’s zero rent. If I owned the land, I’d have to pay to have fallen trees removed, plow snow, etc. (look at the road grader you have to pay for), taxes.

Profit is 4/10 years? I hope not. Maybe that’s specific to your land/yields. I have been well in the black every year. Of course some years better than others, but have never even come close to losing money.

 

[Snobdds]

To be fair, we don’t know what the guy is content with in terms of equipment.
New equipment? No way.
Clean/used/low hour? Probably not.
Older/somewhat worn? Maybe.

When you say “ground that was paid for”, yes that’s helpful, but what’s even more helpful is $0 rent ground. I don’t pay any rent. And by not owning, no taxes, either. Zero, zip, nada for land. I am expected to plow a few driveways on some of the properties, push fallen trees into the woods, etc. Pretty effortless. Many of my customers pay me for extra work like opening up new pasture, fence line reclamation, etc.
So I actually find that by not owning the land, the profit is better, as long as it’s zero rent. If I owned the land, I’d have to pay to have fallen trees removed, plow snow, etc. (look at the road grader you have to pay for), taxes.

Profit is 4/10 years? I hope not. Maybe that’s specific to your land/yields. I have been well in the black every year. Of course some years better than others, but have never even come close to losing money.

If you have other "obligations" in order to work the land, that is not free. Nothing is free. Maybe cheap, but not free.

Wyoming is nothing like where you are back east. We don't get nearly the amount of rain you guys do. Our yields are much lower and all watering is dependent upon flood irrigation from irrigation ditches. Some years, like this year when we have had no snow, the water is going to be hard to come by. It will make hay prices out here high, but nobody will be able to enjoy those high prices because nobody will have any hay to sell.

My neighbor that does my fields stoped by the other day to discuss the upcoming summer. He is really worried. He wants to drain some of the lake to irrigate the meadows. I don't want to, but I don't know if I can say no.

We are so dry out here this year. We maybe got 10 inches of snow total.

 

[VroomVroom]

I owe nothing for the land. I only get 21 day periods during the summer though. How long would it take to mow 50 acres let’s say? I know last year they were charging an arm and a leg for hay because the dry season you were not allowed starting any equipment. Full fire ban. No atvs. Nothing. I thought my coworker who had horses as pets was paying 25$ a square bale. Small bale! I’m not sure what they normally go for. I’d say 7-8$

 

[VroomVroom]

How long it take to mow 50 acres on average? Sickle on 50hp

 

[zzvyb6]

It all depends on local marketting oportunities. I'm surrounded by horse farms, both hobby and training centers. I bought property with hay already established on it. A local farmer let me borrow a mower. I already had a 22 hp Yanmar tractor. Bought a scrap JD square baler for $350 and a rake for $500. I had my own horses that had been boarded when we lived in Ann Arbor. I had good engineering and mechanical skills all ready for the challenge. Started with 10 acres out of the 25 available. I sold my excess hay as "Baled Weeds" and the area horse owners couldn't get enough of it. I was zoned 'Ag' and along with a great accountant, I paid for the equipment in the first year. Used extra money to buy the borrowed mower. Since then, I've "trained" 2 local nurses to run the equipment, maintain it and enjoy the smell of fresh cut hay. They recently bought their own equipment the same way: buy auction junk and fix it.
So, the local needs are a driving the market. Having a TSC and a local JD AND NH dealer nearby are handy ingredients. Having good tools is mandatory. A tire changer is also a recommended item. Learning how to repair or change a tire is also a skill that escapes many locals. It's still a hobby to me.

That being said, I'd recommend you don't start with 100 acres. Start with what you can use and store in a barn. Outside doesn't work for my area.
Try to ignore the neigh sayers, you may not have their limitations, weaknesses, lack of help, and their other obligations. In this country, the tax exemptions and filings make it really worthwhile, as well as preserving the AG zoning. My property taxes are 1/3 of the neighbor's postage stamp sized lots and here in Michigan, selling Ag land with a homestead is immune to the huge jump in assessed value if and when you sell the property for 10 times what you paid for it. This makes the next owner much happier when they get sick of blue state policies, taxes, city life, HOAs, and trouble-makers. It sure kept me out of jail ! Here's my legacy ...

 

[Hay Dude]

If you have other "obligations" in order to work the land, that is not free. Nothing is free. Maybe cheap, but not free.

They are so small, they aren’t worth mentioning. I have 2 driveways I plow, but I have to do them to complete other plowing jobs. It’s maybe 1/2 hour of work. Definitely cheaper than taxes, or the other significant costs of land ownership.
The other thing to remember is I actually make money from other, paying jobs i do for them. I have one customer who has paid me well over $100,000 in property improvement projects, yet they charge me $0 in land rent.

Wyoming is nothing like where you are back east. We don't get nearly the amount of rain you guys do. Our yields are much lower and all watering is dependent upon flood irrigation from irrigation ditches. Some years, like this year when we have had no snow, the water is going to be hard to come by. It will make hay prices out here high, but nobody will be able to enjoy those high prices because nobody will have any hay to sell.

My neighbor that does my fields stoped by the other day to discuss the upcoming summer. He is really worried. He wants to drain some of the lake to irrigate the meadows. I don't want to, but I don't know if I can say no.

We are so dry out here this year. We maybe got 10 inches of snow total.

I heard that. My son said skiing & snow boarding was limited in his 2 trips out there this year.
Yes. If there’s one thing i have learned about hay, it is a regionally different crop.

 

[Rockbadchild]

How long it take to mow 50 acres on average? Sickle on 50hp

it would depend on the size of the sickle mower and how smooth and uniform the field is... but about a day I would say, then half of that to rake it if you take two row to make one.

 

[Hay Dude]

How long it take to mow 50 acres on average? Sickle on 50hp

Like a 8’ sickle bar mower? You might do 3 acres an hour. Depends on number of obstacles and thickness of crop. So if minimal obstacles, it might take ~15 hours???

If you are talking about a sickle bar, you do realize there’s no conditioning of the hay and it will take longer to dry than a haybine or discbine with conditioning?

 

[VroomVroom]

It all depends on local marketting oportunities. I'm surrounded by horse farms, both hobby and training centers. I bought property with hay already established on it. A local farmer let me borrow a mower. I already had a 22 hp Yanmar tractor. Bought a scrap JD square baler for $350 and a rake for $500. I had my own horses that had been boarded when we lived in Ann Arbor. I had good engineering and mechanical skills all ready for the challenge. Started with 10 acres out of the 25 available. I sold my excess hay as "Baled Weeds" and the area horse owners couldn't get enough of it. I was zoned 'Ag' and along with a great accountant, I paid for the equipment in the first year. Used extra money to buy the borrowed mower. Since then, I've "trained" 2 local nurses to run the equipment, maintain it and enjoy the smell of fresh cut hay. They recently bought their own equipment the same way: buy auction junk and fix it.
So, the local needs are a driving the market. Having a TSC and a local JD AND NH dealer nearby are handy ingredients. Having good tools is mandatory. A tire changer is also a recommended item. Learning how to repair or change a tire is also a skill that escapes many locals. It's still a hobby to me.

That being said, I'd recommend you don't start with 100 acres. Start with what you can use and store in a barn. Outside doesn't work for my area.
Try to ignore the neigh sayers, you may not have their limitations, weaknesses, lack of help, and their other obligations. In this country, the tax exemptions and filings make it really worthwhile, as well as preserving the AG zoning. My property taxes are 1/3 of the neighbor's postage stamp sized lots and here in Michigan, selling Ag land with a homestead is immune to the huge jump in assessed value if and when you sell the property for 10 times what you paid for it. This makes the next owner much happier when they get sick of blue state policies, taxes, city life, HOAs, and trouble-makers. It sure kept me out of jail ! Here's my legacy ...View attachment 5256156View attachment 5256157View attachment 5256158View attachment 5256159View attachment 5256160

Jeeze you got a bailer for that cheap? Lucky. I wish I could get hell like that lol.

 

[VroomVroom]

Like a 8’ sickle bar mower? You might do 3 acres an hour. Depends on number of obstacles and thickness of crop. So if minimal obstacles, it might take ~15 hours???

If you are talking about a sickle bar, you do realize there’s no conditioning of the hay and it will take longer to dry than a haybine or discbine with conditioning?

Yes. I only been aware of that recently. How do you crack the hay open to dry faster? Not sure if I remember father mentioning what they did.

 

[Rockbadchild]

Yes. I only been aware of that recently. How do you crack the hay open to dry faster? Not sure if I remember father mentioning what they did.

That's what a conditioner mower do, there are rollers that press the hay, the issue I have with the conditioner is it put it in a row after cutting so you pretty much have to tedder it to spread it out for it to dry after cutting it.... with a sickle mower you can leave it there for it to dry for a few days before you rake it... some area needs it, myself up north we usually don't have issues with the weather so I don't need it.

 

[VroomVroom]

I could start smaller one field is more uniform. I’d say 40 acres or little less. I figured the more I could get the more I could make to offset the cost of equipment

 

[Rockbadchild]

I could start smaller one field is more uniform. I’d say 40 acres or little less. I figured the more I could get the more I could make to offset the cost of equipment

Yes but it depends on the work you need to get the field up and ready, if you need to seed and fertilize the more it will cost up front to get them ready, that's a big cost if you do. If you put 100lbs of fertilizer per acres of 18-18-18 @ around $55 per bag (what it will most likely need) its $4000 for 40 acres, then you apply seeds at 20lbs a acres (pretty much what will be recommended) @ $250 per bag you will need 14 -15 bag which is $3600 so your 40 acres will cost you $7600 before you even start. wana run the numbers for 100 acres ? your at 20k ... it is true that more you buy cheaper it gets but still ....

It is good to split your field in section so it spread the cost of ''today'' and in 5 to 10 years when you will need to spread more fertilizer, it wont deplete all at once.