equipment emissions (EPA) ended

[Hay Dude]

So we are on sort of on the same page.

If a person already has too much to do in the hours available - a problem we all share - is when it makes sense to take it to a skilled repair person.

My point is that the skilled repair person should be able to be yourself... or any good technician. It shouldn't have to just be a dealership. There should be more of a choice on who is to fix it, and the only way I can see to widen that choice is by learning more technical knowledge.

Right now we either don't want to or don't have to put in the study time. But it's nice to know that there is an alternative.

rScotty

Yeah, but as you know equipment doesn’t usually break while sitting in the tractor shed over the winter, it breaks when it’s being used, especially when stressed during “prime time”. Too much going on to take off 2 days to make a repair happens often.
Most of the time, my choice is let the really complex stuff be repaired, while I continue to work in the short time windows I have.
If it can wait until winter, sure I’ll do it. Did a knotter billhook replacement under lights because the baling had to continue the next day.

Also noteworthy that an experienced tech is faster, because of practice, more diagnostic tools, probably 1/2 dozen other techs to consult and probably 10 times the speed on parts and a more extensive toolbox.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

So we are on sort of on the same page.

If a person already has too much to do in the hours available - a problem we all share - is when it makes sense to take it to a skilled repair person.

My point is that the skilled repair person should be able to be yourself... or any good technician. It shouldn't have to just be a dealership. There should be more of a choice on who is to fix it, and the only way I can see to widen that choice is by learning more technical knowledge.

Right now we either don't want to or don't have to put in the study time. But it's nice to know that there is an alternative.

rScotty

I would suggest you look Larson Farms or Ivers on YT and then say that it just takes a couple minutes of time and you can know everything you need to know to repair your own tractors.
They both do a tremendous amount of their own repair work. They also both defer to the dealer when it needs a computer tied on to troubleshoot. You won't find many big operators that don't have a well equipped shop. There is so much going on with a tractor than meets the eye that yes any decent mechanic can change a water pump or replace the fan bearings.
Deere recommends to change most of their harmonic balancers at 5000 hours or 5 years. As I recall the bolt has to be torqued to 375 ft lbs. So a torque multiplier or a 3/4" torque wrench will be required.

Even the older tractors have electronics controlling transmission function. The automatic power shift and the remotes have multiple settings. You can set the speed and the duration that it is sending pressure to a cylinder for lifting and lowering. But yes you are correct that it's all because there aren't any skilled farmers. It's easy to see physically broke issues. Finding the cause when you get a derate situation isn't so simple unless you have the ability to view what the ECM is seeing.

The truck that we are having issues has an Eaton 10 speed Ultra shift transmission. It still has a clutch but it's operated by the computer. The transmission and the engine are talking to each other. It drops the RPM's and shifts to the next gear whether it's an upshift or a down shift. This all occurs even if you keep the accelerator mashed to the floor. So to say with all you need is a little more skill, well we disagree. I grew up with hand clutches and non power shift tractors.

I am more computer/electronic savvy then a most guys my age. I was one of two guys that was installing GPS tracking systems on our equipment. The older machines only had tracking and utilization on them. The newer ones the unit was tied into the ECM. They were the best because I had an app on my phone that I could see exactly what was happening. Operator calls and says hey I just went into derate. I could see the codes and cause that the ECM was reacting too. It was without fail always an emissions issue. The reality is many issues require a way to "connect". You need more than a code reader. Then you are also overlooking that many times it is "go" time. Even if you can possibly do the repair yourself you need to be farming not repairing at that moment.

 

[rScotty]

I would suggest you look Larson Farms or Ivers on YT and then say that it just takes a couple minutes of time and you can know everything you need to know to repair your own tractors.
They both do a tremendous amount of their own repair work. They also both defer to the dealer when it needs a computer tied on to troubleshoot. You won't find many big operators that don't have a well equipped shop. There is so much going on with a tractor than meets the eye that yes any decent mechanic can change a water pump or replace the fan bearings.
Deere recommends to change most of their harmonic balancers at 5000 hours or 5 years. As I recall the bolt has to be torqued to 375 ft lbs. So a torque multiplier or a 3/4" torque wrench will be required.

Even the older tractors have electronics controlling transmission function. The automatic power shift and the remotes have multiple settings. You can set the speed and the duration that it is sending pressure to a cylinder for lifting and lowering. But yes you are correct that it's all because there aren't any skilled farmers. It's easy to see physically broke issues. Finding the cause when you get a derate situation isn't so simple unless you have the ability to view what the ECM is seeing.

The truck that we are having issues has an Eaton 10 speed Ultra shift transmission. It still has a clutch but it's operated by the computer. The transmission and the engine are talking to each other. It drops the RPM's and shifts to the next gear whether it's an upshift or a down shift. This all occurs even if you keep the accelerator mashed to the floor. So to say with all you need is a little more skill, well we disagree. I grew up with hand clutches and non power shift tractors.

I am more computer/electronic savvy then a most guys my age. I was one of two guys that was installing GPS tracking systems on our equipment. The older machines only had tracking and utilization on them. The newer ones the unit was tied into the ECM. They were the best because I had an app on my phone that I could see exactly what was happening. Operator calls and says hey I just went into derate. I could see the codes and cause that the ECM was reacting too. It was without fail always an emissions issue. The reality is many issues require a way to "connect". You need more than a code reader. Then you are also overlooking that many times it is "go" time. Even if you can possibly do the repair yourself you need to be farming not repairing at that moment.

I was going to congratulate you on your mechanical knowledge, but then realized that you made some of it up,.

The only person who said, "that it just takes a couple minutes of time and you can know everything you need to know to repair your own tractors." is you. You implied it was me.

I never said that, or implied anything of the sort. I wouldn't, because it is simply not true.
The truth is that it takes time and effort to learn anything well. Sometimes a lot of both.
What I would say - and believe - is that if someone can design something new and complex, it should then be possible for someone else to learn how to repair it,

Again, your statement is not what I said or implied. It reflects your opinion, not mine.
I'll just leave it at that.

rScotty

 

[Hay Dude]

I would suggest you look Larson Farms or Ivers on YT and then say that it just takes a couple minutes of time and you can know everything you need to know to repair your own tractors.
They both do a tremendous amount of their own repair work. They also both defer to the dealer when it needs a computer tied on to troubleshoot. You won't find many big operators that don't have a well equipped shop. There is so much going on with a tractor than meets the eye that yes any decent mechanic can change a water pump or replace the fan bearings.
Deere recommends to change most of their harmonic balancers at 5000 hours or 5 years. As I recall the bolt has to be torqued to 375 ft lbs. So a torque multiplier or a 3/4" torque wrench will be required.

Even the older tractors have electronics controlling transmission function. The automatic power shift and the remotes have multiple settings. You can set the speed and the duration that it is sending pressure to a cylinder for lifting and lowering. But yes you are correct that it's all because there aren't any skilled farmers. It's easy to see physically broke issues. Finding the cause when you get a derate situation isn't so simple unless you have the ability to view what the ECM is seeing.

The truck that we are having issues has an Eaton 10 speed Ultra shift transmission. It still has a clutch but it's operated by the computer. The transmission and the engine are talking to each other. It drops the RPM's and shifts to the next gear whether it's an upshift or a down shift. This all occurs even if you keep the accelerator mashed to the floor. So to say with all you need is a little more skill, well we disagree. I grew up with hand clutches and non power shift tractors.

I am more computer/electronic savvy then a most guys my age. I was one of two guys that was installing GPS tracking systems on our equipment. The older machines only had tracking and utilization on them. The newer ones the unit was tied into the ECM. They were the best because I had an app on my phone that I could see exactly what was happening. Operator calls and says hey I just went into derate. I could see the codes and cause that the ECM was reacting too. It was without fail always an emissions issue. The reality is many issues require a way to "connect". You need more than a code reader. Then you are also overlooking that many times it is "go" time. Even if you can possibly do the repair yourself you need to be farming not repairing at that moment.

Amen.

 

[rontaki]

You obviously havent been balls deep in wiring & computers in a newer farm tractor with extensive electronics.

Not to mention the proprietary computer tools to "integrate" a new component into the Rube Goldberg system.

 

[DarkBlack]

The most frustrating part of repairing a car/truck/tractor is when you know the specific area of your machine that’s not working and expensive/ difficult to fix , is an area that’s not actually needed for the function of the machine to do its job, it’s an area of the machine built in/on to appease a government regulation, that previous simplified generations already addressed adequately to 98%

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

I was going to congratulate you on your mechanical knowledge, but then realized that you made some of it up,.

The only person who said, "that it just takes a couple minutes of time and you can know everything you need to know to repair your own tractors." is you. You implied it was me.

I never said that, or implied anything of the sort. I wouldn't, because it is simply not true.
The truth is that it takes time and effort to learn anything well. Sometimes a lot of both.
What I would say - and believe - is that if someone can design something new and complex, it should then be possible for someone else to learn how to repair it,

Again, your statement is not what I said or implied. It reflects your opinion, not mine.
I'll just leave it at that.

rScotty

Your words, "That's what I meant by saying that today's mechanics and technicians need to take a step up the learning curve. It's not enough anymore to just turn nuts and bolts and maybe be a reasonable machinist/welder."

Sounds like exactly what you said. Just a little more effort. There are so many variables involved that even a good technician is going to beat there head against the proverbial brick wall far to often. Take the John Deere 6120 that the farmer I help has. Tractor data says there are 4 transmission options but it doesn't list the IVT transmission which this one has. So there may be 5 options for the transmission. Regardless 2 of them absolutely communicate with the engine because of the partial powershift that will downshift when it pulls down to a specific RPM. Then there are numerous horsepower options and that is only one class of tractors.

The point I am making is even if you spent 24/7 on this you will never become the all knowing expert. Because then you have the 5, 7, 8, and 9 thousand series tractors with different engines sizes and multiple power outputs etc. Then throw combines, hay conditioners, self propelled sprayers, and silage choppers and even a great tech will be overwhelmed. Combines have power boost to offset the HP draw the unloading auger puts on. So the reality is you will never know everything and regardless of the effort put forth you will fail.

I won't disagree that there are plenty of techs that just get by and lack the ambition to be the best they can be. I will also say that as HayDude mentioned and I also alluded to is they don't break down when they are sitting in the shed. Or at least very rarely do.

 

[Hay Dude]

You guys wouldn’t believe how complex even a 10-15 year old CVT farm tractor is. Remove the side console in the cab and it looks like miles of wiring, circuit boards and other things Idon’t really recognize.
I just picked up a 2014 Challenger 185HP chore tractor and it has an engine & transmission computer system called “engine manager”. There’s a dial in the cab that allows the operator to decide whether the PTO or the engine gets more power when the engine gets pulled down under load.
The steering sensitivity can be adjusted by a knob. It allows the steering wheel to make the tractor turn harder, but with less or more turns.
Reading the owners manual is like reading a fighter jet operators manual.

We have no choice to buy simpler tractors, unless you want something older with a lot of hours. They are all complicated, computer assisted, push button tractors that are very complicated.

Even the spool valves are electronic solenoid controlled. You push a small thumb lever to lift/lower implements. When it breaks, they cost ~$1,000 to replace.

Last year, my 20 year old Massey 7495 completely stopped working. The dash cluster went out, and I did not know the electronics ran through a computer in the cluster. $2,400 to replace cluster.

Great when they are running, but a headache and expensive when they are not.

 

[WinterDeere]

All true, but don't equate cost with the added features. The reality is that transition to electronics over mechanical controls is often cheaper for engineering and manufacturing, and allows machine configurations that just wouldn't be possible with miles of mechanical linkages. But then once everything has been converted to electronics, it becomes an easy game of "might as well... it's nearly free", to add such options.

I've been through the same evolution in the products I design and build, many times. We transitioned from old analog fault monitoring systems to digital systems, for the sake of better failure management and fault reporting. But then that created a scenario where adding options that were impossible in the old system became nearly free on the new system.

The tractor manufacturer may have switched to drive by wire, to save a boatload in cost and weight on mechanical linkage for everything from steering to hydro controls. And that cost savings is sometimes too indirect to be obvious to the end user, they may even spend more on steering to save on chassis construction or allow better engine placement, for example. But once that's been implemented, it's easy and nearly free to add a knob to adjust the sensitivity.

You do have to admit, they're packing more power into smaller packages, than ever before. It's very likely some of these electronic controls were what have allowed for that more compact packaging, either directly or indirectly, by eliminating the need for straight-line paths between operator station and the various transmission, steering, and other SCV controls.

 

[Hay Dude]

All true, but don't equate cost with the added features. The reality is that transition to electronics over mechanical controls is often cheaper for engineering and manufacturing, and allows machine configurations that just wouldn't be possible with miles of mechanical linkages. But then once everything has been converted to electronics, it becomes an easy game of "might as well... it's nearly free", to add such options.

I've been through the same evolution in the products I design and build, many times. We transitioned from old analog fault monitoring systems to digital systems, for the sake of better failure management and fault reporting. But then that created a scenario where adding options that were impossible in the old system became nearly free on the new system.

The tractor manufacturer may have switched to drive by wire, to save a boatload in cost and weight on mechanical linkage for everything from steering to hydro controls. And that cost savings is sometimes too indirect to be obvious to the end user, they may even spend more on steering to save on chassis construction or allow better engine placement, for example. But once that's been implemented, it's easy and nearly free to add a knob to adjust the sensitivity.

You do have to admit, they're packing more power into smaller packages, than ever before. It's very likely some of these electronic controls were what have allowed for that more compact packaging, either directly or indirectly, by eliminating the need for straight-line paths between operator station and the various transmission, steering, and other SCV controls.

Hmmmm, I don’t know about that. My 1999 MX-270 had just as much power, but was much less complex than the Challenger MT655E that replaced it. Both were factory about 270HP at the PTO.
The MX-270 had 1 turbo. I could work on most everything. Simple 8.3L Cummins.
The 655E has 2 sequential turbos. If the one that feeds the other grenades first, it takes out both turbos. Much more electronic 8.9L Sisu.
The 655E is more comfortable, but the MX-270 was comfortable enough.

Both tractors basically identical in size. The MX-270 was turned up to about 300HP and had about 10% more grunt. The 655E is smoother and easier/quieter to operate and had better controls & brakes.
But the 655E is going to be more expensive to repair and has less that I can repair for “free”. There’s no doubt about it. Thats the rub.

 

[rScotty]

Your words, "That's what I meant by saying that today's mechanics and technicians need to take a step up the learning curve. It's not enough anymore to just turn nuts and bolts and maybe be a reasonable machinist/welder."

Sounds like exactly what you said. Just a little more effort. There are so many variables involved that even a good technician is going to beat there head against the proverbial brick wall far to often. Take the John Deere 6120 that the farmer I help has. Tractor data says there are 4 transmission options but it doesn't list the IVT transmission which this one has. So there may be 5 options for the transmission. Regardless 2 of them absolutely communicate with the engine because of the partial powershift that will downshift when it pulls down to a specific RPM. Then there are numerous horsepower options and that is only one class of tractors.

The point I am making is even if you spent 24/7 on this you will never become the all knowing expert. Because then you have the 5, 7, 8, and 9 thousand series tractors with different engines sizes and multiple power outputs etc. Then throw combines, hay conditioners, self propelled sprayers, and silage choppers and even a great tech will be overwhelmed. Combines have power boost to offset the HP draw the unloading auger puts on. So the reality is you will never know everything and regardless of the effort put forth you will fail.

I won't disagree that there are plenty of techs that just get by and lack the ambition to be the best they can be. I will also say that as HayDude mentioned and I also alluded to is they don't break down when they are sitting in the shed. Or at least very rarely do.

There seems to ber a big difference in the way we look at knowledge. Not just you and I, maybe it's a generational thing. I believe a person can learn this new technology. Yes, learn all of it.
And yes, I agree that learning it would be complicated....but not that it's impossible.

There are a couple of questions that just naturally come up from our discussion:

If these new tractors really are too overwhelmingly complicated for people to understand, then how do you think they get designed and tested and built in the first place?

And....If tractors really have reached the point of being too complex to be repaired because nobody can possibly know enough to fix them, then what's the answer for breakdowns?
What should the future tractor operator do?
Just work it until it quits? What's the alternative?

rScotty

 

[rontaki]

The next big technological improvement, if not already implemented, is machines that automatically call for (expensive) repairs at a dealership, when they fail. All you'll need to do is pay the bill. Hopefully they'll automate the procedure to mortgage the house or property to pay the bill.

The "improvement" after that will be to eliminate the need for a human to operate the equipment.
Next, humans will be eliminated, and agriculture will no longer be needed, nor its machinery.

Problem solved!

 

[Too many Kubotas]

If these new tractors really are too overwhelmingly complicated for people to understand, then how do you think they get designed and tested and built in the first place?

My guess is that teams of specialists in several different fields design their portion of the tractor.

With some luck these various parts will then be assembled and work together as they should, but I seriously doubt that the designers are interchangeable.

Would the people that figured out the hydraulics also be able to search for hiccups in the computer programming? I doubt it.

 

[EscapedSuburbia]

If these new tractors really are too overwhelmingly complicated for people to understand, then how do you think they get designed and tested and built in the first place?

What a strange argument. SpaceX rockets and nuclear power plants are designed by people too but I don't have the knowledge or tools to repair them. I'll wager neither do you.

Tractors, and all modern vehicles, are complex systems designed by hundreds of engineers with very specialized knowledge. They then create documentation and tools for troubleshooting and repair. They also create specialized training for techs. Customers don't realistically have access to that training, documentation, or tools. These aren't simple 1960s vehicles that any shade tree mechanic with a set of Craftsman tools can work on.

 

[Hay Dude]

My guess is that teams of specialists in several different fields design their portion of the tractor.

With some luck these various parts will then be assembled and work together as they should, but I seriously doubt that the designers are interchangeable.

Would the people that figured out the hydraulics also be able to search for hiccups in the computer programming? I doubt it.

I already see that at the dealership service depts.
They’ll have a traditional “grease monkey” type tech doing traditional work, and a kid that looks like a “computer geek” doing precision farming, programming, etc.

To expect the farmer to be able to do all that and do the actual day to day farming is absurd.

Far as “testing” goes, they are just like trucks….the customer does the testing for the manufacturer.

 

[WinterDeere]

There seems to ber a big difference in the way we look at knowledge. Not just you and I, maybe it's a generational thing. I believe a person can learn this new technology. Yes, learn all of it.
And yes, I agree that learning it would be complicated....but not that it's impossible.

I catch myself in this, having transition from the young techie guy who used to laugh at the late-career guys who didn't want to learn the latest tools, to now the grumpy middle-late-career guy shouting at my computer when Excel doesn't behave exactly like it did 20 years ago.

But not unjustifiably, so. We all put in our dues learning tools early in life, that earn us those higher salaries we expect later in life, when we're able to get sh*t done much faster than those still learning the tools... and then the tools change.

My guess is that teams of specialists in several different fields design their portion of the tractor.

But this has always been the case. It's not like the rare mechanical engineer with years of experience in setting up complex controls linkage was ever the same guy working on hydrostatic transmissions or engine components. The areas of specialization change, but specialization has been required for generations.

Would the people that figured out the hydraulics also be able to search for hiccups in the computer programming? I doubt it.

No less possible than the guy who figured out the mechanical advance on an old distributor solving a hydraulics problem.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

But this has always been the case. It's not like the rare mechanical engineer with years of experience in setting up complex controls linkage was ever the same guy working on hydrostatic transmissions or engine components. The areas of specialization change, but specialization has been required for generations.

No less possible than the guy who figured out the mechanical advance on an old distributor solving a hydraulics problem.

I dunno. I have rebuilt engines, transfer cases, and transmissions (an automatic is still on the bucket list), wired vehicles from scratch, painted one, set up differentials, reworked steering systems for better geometry, etc. All without any prior knowledge about how to do it, or any classes on the subjects.

My education in the electronics field sure didn't help with any of the above, with the exception of a class in analytical trouble shooting, but that was something I already had done using basic common sense.

As a result I wouldn't hesitate to put together another vehicle more or less from scratch...as long as it was relatively basic. I obviously wouldn't build my own axles or transmissions, just modify them as desired, but building a frame or simple body I would. Fixing a mechanical advance? No problem. Sizing cylinders for clutch and brake systems, no problem, same with picking cylinders for tractors and implements.

Now, give me a modern vehicle and a code reader and will likely give up before finding and fixing a problem.

 

[Hay Dude]

I dunno. I have rebuilt engines, transfer cases, and transmissions (an automatic is still on the bucket list), wired vehicles from scratch, painted one, set up differentials, reworked steering systems for better geometry, etc. All without any prior knowledge about how to do it, or any classes on the subjects.

My education in the electronics field sure didn't help with any of the above, with the exception of a class in analytical trouble shooting, but that was something I already had done using basic common sense.

As a result I wouldn't hesitate to put together another vehicle more or less from scratch...as long as it was relatively basic. I obviously wouldn't build my own axles or transmissions, just modify them as desired, but building a frame or simple body I would. Fixing a mechanical advance? No problem. Sizing cylinders for clutch and brake systems, no problem, same with picking cylinders for tractors and implements.

Now, give me a modern vehicle and a code reader and will likely give up before finding and fixing a problem.

It’s all about time. I could rebuild an engine, if I had months.
Problem is like I said, chit breaks when you’re using it. If you are using it to keep the bills paid, it’s got to be repaired fast.

I can repair most anything, but if it’s complicated, or out of my wheel house? It ain’t getting fixed fast.

 

[Too many Kubotas]

You're right. It took me three years of working evenings/nights and weekends to build a vehicle.

But I sure learned a lot.

 

[Paystar]

One correction to my idea is the DPF would have to be replaced with a muffler because it would become clogged if there’s no regen.
Even with that, it’s still a viable idea.
Vehicles have been built different for CA for 50 years.

DEF can be shut off with no issues.
Cooled EGR could be blocked off with a simple blocking plate.

As much as this phrase is worn out, if we can put a man on the moon, we can block off an EGR and we can put a muffler in place of a DPF.

A contractor I know has an International with an ISX Cummins in it. They thought they could just cut all the wires off and remove the DPF. You should see the world of hurt that caused them, LOL