equipment emissions (EPA) ended

[WinterDeere]

I’m thinking they don’t want to get rid of EGR/DEF/DPF because they make a lot of profit off of them.

That could be part of it. But I already laid out pages ago, the idea that manufacturers might just be trying to avoid the cost of having to re-implement all this crap, when the next administration comes in and automatically pushes to repeal all of these changes.

Political pissing matches are no good for business, and reversing direction on your technical development every 4th year can kill many good companies. They may be playing the long game, expecting the reg's will be returning, sooner or later.

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe it’s the influence of California lawsuits seeking not only to keep but also further tighten standards?

Hard to know except business for lawyers is up…

 

[Hay Dude]

That could be part of it. But I already laid out pages ago, the idea that manufacturers might just be trying to avoid the cost of having to re-implement all this crap, when the next administration comes in and automatically pushes to repeal all of these changes.

Political pissing matches are no good for business, and reversing direction on your technical development every 4th year can kill many good companies. They may be playing the long game, expecting the reg's will be returning, sooner or later.

Not disagreeing with you, but all the exhaust after treatment equipment can be shut off with simple programming. Nothing has to be physically changed or removed.
If that is the case, why not just keep bolting the crap on, as goofy as it is, and turn it “on” for CA, and turn it “off” for the states that follow the fed guidelines?

That alone would pull a LOT of buyers off the sidelines that have been patching together pre-emissions trucks. Price is the same for CA as other states, but the sensor headaches are largely gone.

Cooled EGR remains a headache, but having the DEF shut off and DPF sensors shut off is a huge step forward.

It could also be turned back “on” in case a new “green” administration takes over and starts penalizing truckers & farmers for what little profits they still make.

 

[WinterDeere]

...all the exhaust after treatment equipment can be shut off with simple programming. Nothing has to be physically changed or removed.
If that is the case, why not just keep bolting the crap on, as goofy as it is, and turn it “on” for CA, and turn it “off” for the states that follow the fed guidelines?

Seems a reasonable approach. But the Devil is in the details. For all we know, maybe adding the equipment but turning it off increases probability of faults or failures in some related components?

I really have no idea, just throwing out a possible reason why this might not already be standard practice.

 

[Hay Dude]

Seems a reasonable approach. But the Devil is in the details. For all we know, maybe adding the equipment but turning it off increases probability of faults or failures in some related components?

I really have no idea, just throwing out a possible reason why this might not already be standard practice.

One correction to my idea is the DPF would have to be replaced with a muffler because it would become clogged if there’s no regen.
Even with that, it’s still a viable idea.
Vehicles have been built different for CA for 50 years.

DEF can be shut off with no issues.
Cooled EGR could be blocked off with a simple blocking plate.

As much as this phrase is worn out, if we can put a man on the moon, we can block off an EGR and we can put a muffler in place of a DPF.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

The good shops will. I had a Case-IH 270 Magnum with a 8.3L Cummins and a very frustrating problem. At full throttle and max load, it would blow oil out of the breather tube. I tired adding a raised breather to the valve cover to help “contain” the oil, a larger turbo oil return line, even a Cummins 8.3L update kit that said it addressed the problem. Nothing would stop it. Otherwise it ran perfect. No blowby. Very strong engine.
Dealer convinced me to bring it in. They put a turbo on it and told me up front, that the turbo “is yours” once we install it (meaning they wouldn’t take it back off and refund me).
They put the turbo on and it continued to do the same thing. To their credit, they removed the new turbo and put mine back on. Saved me about $4,000.

Another large local farmer had an issue on a John Deere tractor. I don't know the model etc but the local dealer was trying to fix it. They had no success and then presented him with a bill for $20,000 and he was livid. He went in and told them that he would pay for the parts but not the labor. They accepted his offer and he no longer uses their service department or buys from them. He uses a dealership group on the Iowa side of the river. They have picked up enough service work that they are keeping two techs on this side of the river most of the time. The bigger issue is John Deere has an "Area of Responsibility" that protects dealers from another dealership lowballing a piece of equipment whatever it might be. They do allow an adjoining dealership to sell I think 10% of their? sales in the ruling dealerships territory. The hammer they hold over the buyers head is that if they want to use Deere financing they have to play by the rules. Large ticket items often leave no choice for the buyer. If they don't need financing then they can shop around without worry.

 

[Hay Dude]

Another large local farmer had an issue on a John Deere tractor. I don't know the model etc but the local dealer was trying to fix it. They had no success and then presented him with a bill for $20,000 and he was livid. He went in and told them that he would pay for the parts but not the labor. They accepted his offer and he no longer uses their service department or buys from them. He uses a dealership group on the Iowa side of the river. They have picked up enough service work that they are keeping two techs on this side of the river most of the time. The bigger issue is John Deere has an "Area of Responsibility" that protects dealers from another dealership lowballing a piece of equipment whatever it might be. They do allow an adjoining dealership to sell I think 10% of their? sales in the ruling dealerships territory. The hammer they hold over the buyers head is that if they want to use Deere financing they have to play by the rules. Large ticket items often leave no choice for the buyer. If they don't need financing then they can shop around without worry.

Precisely why I don’t deal with Deere.
AGCO, CNH generally doesn’t pull nonsense like that.

 

[Shawn T. W.]

My understanding of the "relaxed rules" is it's related to the so-called "green house gases" not nox ...

 

[rScotty]

I'm afraid that least part of the service shop problem is that a lot of owners have either forgotten or just don't care to learn how to fix their own equipment. Then when someone else can't fix the problem, it becomes all to easy to blame the person who tried.

 

[Hay Dude]

I'm afraid that least part of the service shop problem is that a lot of owners have either forgotten or just don't care to learn how to fix their own equipment.

Or can’t because it’s too complicated.

Then when someone else can't fix the problem, it becomes all to easy to blame the person who tried.

Well, ok but there’s got to be some reasonable expectation that if the farmer can’t fix it, an experienced shop tech can? I spent days on my MX-270 before I gave up and hauled it into the shop. I was in that tiny minority of “unfixable problems” and they gave me a substantial break.
Can’t put it all on the farmer. He signed on the dotted line when the big payment happened (point of sale). Now he has to eat an excrement sandwich AND pa for it?

Nah.

 

[Wobblin-Goblin]

I HIGHLY doubt you are going to see DPF's and regens go away. Everything I have heard is they are just going to make them not derate if they have an issue.

But I will say, if a miracle does happen and I can get a new Kubota without a DPF....I will be going to buy immediately.

But in reality, no engine manufacturer is going to eliminate DPF's and SCR. They have spent billions in development over the last several years so no way they will eliminate it only to have the next government mandate it again.

The two newest tractors on our farm have neither DPF nor DEF: 2021 MF 4707 and 2023 TYM 2515R.

Both are among the finest, best tractors I've ever operated.

 

[GrandpaSmurf825]

I'm afraid that least part of the service shop problem is that a lot of owners have either forgotten or just don't care to learn how to fix their own equipment. Then when someone else can't fix the problem, it becomes all to easy to blame the person who tried.

It's not that simple. Do a little research. Deere especially has made self repair a nightmare. Only because the government has sued them have they came out with a new software app for customer use. $195 per machine. Each machine serial number will be logged. I haven't heard or saw anything on how it works but it was released last year (2025). If a private mechanic wants it the cost is $5995. Outrageous! We paid a little over half that for Cat's service program. Annual subscriptions for either. They are still trying to keep independent mechanics from working on equipment. You can't see what the sensors are seeing without a diagnostic program. Forgetting how to repair has nothing to do with it. At over $200 per hour shop labor rate you better believe the owner has every right to expect more than just changing some parts that didn't fix the problem.

 

[rScotty]

I'm afraid that (at) least part of the service shop problem is that a lot of owners have either forgotten or just don't care to learn how to fix their own equipment.

Hay Dude said:
"Or can’t because it’s too complicated."

I hear you, that's why I said "part of the problem". Another large part has to be companies like the modern John Deere who would be happier if only the dealer had the right to do maintenance - which is where the whole farming & rural "Right to Repair" movement started.

I gotta disagree that tractors are too complicated to repair. Tractors are still pretty simple gadgets.
I'd bet any mechanic with access to the basic operating information can learn to repair them.

Deere apparently agrees theirs would be repairable if they let the information out. Otherwise why would they put so much effort into trying to keep repair info and diagnostics a secret?

It wasn't always that way. Older JDs were famous for reliability and simple repairability.
Luckily for us old-fashioned wrench benders, those repairable older tractors are still available.

rScotty

 

[WinterDeere]

Deere apparently agrees theirs would be repairable if they let the information out. Otherwise why would they put so much effort into trying to keep repair info and diagnostics a secret?

I thought their argument was that it would allow incorrect or inferior repairs, for which they would then be responsible, under warranty?

 

[Hay Dude]

Hay Dude said:
"Or can’t because it’s too complicated."

I hear you, that's why I said "part of the problem". Another large part has to be companies like the modern John Deere who would be happier if only the dealer had the right to do maintenance - which is where the whole farming & rural "Right to Repair" movement started.

I gotta disagree that tractors are too complicated to repair. Tractors are still pretty simple gadgets.
I'd bet any mechanic with access to the basic operating information can learn to repair them.

Deere apparently agrees theirs would be repairable if they let the information out. Otherwise why would they put so much effort into trying to keep repair info and diagnostics a secret?

It wasn't always that way. Older JDs were famous for reliability and simple repairability.
Luckily for us old-fashioned wrench benders, those repairable older tractors are still available.

rScotty

You obviously havent been balls deep in wiring & computers in a newer farm tractor with extensive electronics.

 

[rScotty]

One correction to my idea is the DPF would have to be replaced with a muffler because it would become clogged if there’s no regen.
Even with that, it’s still a viable idea.
Vehicles have been built different for CA for 50 years.

DEF can be shut off with no issues.
Cooled EGR could be blocked off with a simple blocking plate.

As much as this phrase is worn out, if we can put a man on the moon, we can block off an EGR and we can put a muffler in place of a DPF.

Well, now maybe with this new legislation we will get to do that.

Glad you brought up the COOLED EGR system, not much has been mentioned about that system for reburning a portion of the exhaust gases. For new mechanics, old style hot EGRs had been around since the 1970s, but the cooled EGR only preceeded the DPF/DEF mandate by a few years & it has the potential to be a maintenance headache.

On Tier 3&4 engines that came with Cooled EGRs - built roughly 2002 to 2014 - a special water-cooled muffler reduced the temperature of the exhaust gases, gases which were then injected back into the intake manifold to be mixed with the incoming air. The cooled exhaust gas injection didn't begin until the engine coolant got up to operating temperature. When the engine coolant was hot enough, a temperature-controlled pneumatic valve in the engine coolant line opened to force a metered amount of cooled exhaust gas back into the intake manifold to be be re-burnt. This reburning reduced the total amount of nitrogen oxides in the exhaust.

The cooled exhaust system reduced NOx, but it did cause more soot to be formed. Soot was reduced by later emission mandates (DPF/DEF) which had to be phased in by 2015.

It only takes 5 minutes to add an inline on/off valve into the rubber sensor tube between the coolant valve and the EGR regulator, putting the cooled EGR process under operator control.

 

[Hay Dude]

Well, now maybe with this new legislation we will get to do that.

Glad you brought up the COOLED EGR system, not much has been mentioned about that system for reburning a portion of the exhaust gases. For new mechanics, old style hot EGRs had been around since the 1970s, but the cooled EGR only preceeded the DPF/DEF mandate by a few years & it has the potential to be a maintenance headache.

They are a big headache.

On Tier 3&4 engines that came with Cooled EGRs - built roughly 2002 to 2014 - a special water-cooled muffler reduced the temperature of the exhaust gases, gases which were then injected back into the intake manifold to be mixed with the incoming air. The cooled exhaust gas injection didn't begin until the engine coolant got up to operating temperature. When the engine coolant was hot enough, a temperature-controlled pneumatic valve in the engine coolant line opened to force a metered amount of cooled exhaust gas back into the intake manifold to be be re-burnt. This reburning reduced the total amount of nitrogen oxides in the exhaust.

The cooled exhaust system reduced NOx, but it did cause more soot to be formed. Soot was reduced by later emission mandates (DPF/DEF) which had to be phased in by 2015.

It only takes 5 minutes to add an inline on/off valve into the rubber sensor tube between the coolant valve and the EGR regulator, putting the cooled EGR process under operator control.

Yes, easy to defeat, but no less illegal than removing a DPF or turning off DEF.
But if I had all 3 of them, I would defeat the cooled EGR first.

Cooled EGR’s were a big problem with the International maxxforce diesel engines.

 

[rScotty]

You obviously havent been balls deep in wiring & computers in a newer farm tractor with extensive electronics.

No, not as much as I would like. I'm just getting too old.

But computers & electronics are not going away. That's what I meant by saying that today's mechanics and technicians need to take a step up the learning curve. It's not enough anymore to just turn nuts and bolts and maybe be a reasonable machinist/welder.

To be an independent repairman today also requires hydraulic, electrical, and digital knowledge. The opportunities are there for anyone. And it's gender neutral. All it takes is more study.

This is tractor mechanics we are talking here, not rocket science.

rScotty

 

[Hay Dude]

No, not as much as I would like. I'm just getting too old.

But computers & electronics are not going away. That's what I meant by saying that today's mechanics and technicians need to take a step up the learning curve. It's not enough anymore to just turn nuts and bolts and maybe be a reasonable machinist/welder.

To be an independent repairman today also requires hydraulic, electrical, and digital knowledge. The opportunities are there for anyone. And it's gender neutral. All it takes is more study.

This is tractor mechanics we are talking here, not rocket science.

rScotty

A tech today must still be able to do the busted knuckles, grease, steel parts, wrenches, but now in addition, must posses a lot of computer & electronics skills. I have been working on equipment with 9 fingers for about 3 months now due to crushing my left index finger in the baler.

Expecting a farmer to be able to manage old world and new world equipment repairs and run all the other daily aspects of farming is unrealistic. Not because we aren’t smart enough, but because we have too much to do.

When a critical piece goes down, the rest of the farm’s needs keep on going. Seeing a complex repair all the way through when hay needs baled is not usually possible. It’s always been this way, but add the computers/electronics layer and it’s worse.

That’s why it usually is a call for help on the more complex stuff.

 

[rScotty]

A tech today must still be able to do the busted knuckles, grease, steel parts, wrenches, but now in addition, must posses a lot of computer & electronics skills. I have been working on equipment with 9 fingers for about 3 months now due to crushing my left index finger in the baler.

Expecting a farmer to be able to manage old world and new world equipment repairs and run all the other daily aspects of farming is unrealistic. Not because we aren’t smart enough, but because we have too much to do.

When a critical piece goes down, the rest of the farm’s needs keep on going. Seeing a complex repair all the way through when hay needs baled is not usually possible. It’s always been this way, but add the computers/electronics layer and it’s worse.

That’s why it usually is a call for help on the more complex stuff.

So we are on sort of on the same page.

If a person already has too much to do in the hours available - a problem we all share - is when it makes sense to take it to a skilled repair person.

My point is that the skilled repair person should be able to be yourself... or any good technician. It shouldn't have to just be a dealership. There should be more of a choice on who is to fix it, and the only way I can see to widen that choice is by learning more technical knowledge.

Right now we either don't want to or don't have to put in the study time. But it's nice to know that there is an alternative.

rScotty