20A Shop Outlets for Charging

[Midniteoyl]

AFAIK, every 15 and 20 amp outlet in a garage is now to be both GFCI and AFCI as of 2017, including openers and plugs for lights (hardwired lights dont need it). 2011 NEC says the Reset should be 'easily accessible from the ground', meaning that overhead outlets are to be protected upstream by a GFCI that you can reach, usually a wall outlet.

I can see where if your *are* adding power, having a minimum number of outlets (and available power per circuit) requirement wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing.

 

[eolesen]

My only gripe is that being required to put these in a location where they'll least likely to be used is nothing but a dog and pony show, and the inspector knows that. He's admitted that most of these get demoed once the final inspection sticker is issued.

 

[grsthegreat]

I retired from electrical installs before the EV circuit requirements came into effect. I have no idea what the current requirements for ev charge circuits are now. I used to place a standard outlet between doors for diesel heating circuits.

 

[Torvy]

The NEC is a great example of why we need local/state govs to minimize these standards and not simply adopt some recommendations by a private group. Only actual safety standards should be required.

Much of what they "require" comes down to preferences. Regular people assume these are some actual agency recommending safety standards. Too much of it has zero to do with safety.

 

[Runner]

Only actual safety standards should be required.

Agree, but by that line of thinking, no one would ever adopt the International Energy Conservation Code, but good luck with that.

 

[Runner]

My only gripe is that being required to put these in a location where they'll least likely to be used

I'm running a pair of 4 foot LED shop lights and a fan off mine, controlled by wireless switches. Very handy.

 

[WinterDeere]

We are in the process of getting electric into our shop building, and the inspector is insisting on a 20A outlet per overhead door/bay. Apparently, this is a push because of EV chargers (something that will likely never step foot inside our shop building).

Yes, there is a requirement for one outlet per bay in the NEC, ever since 2014. This modifies the 2011 code that required one outlet per garage.

That said... who these days doesn't want dozens of outlets in their garage? I put a 4-gang every 4 feet, when I electrified my carriage barn, with a duplex NEMA 5-20R (115V) and a duplex 6-20R (230V) in each. They're wired in a multiwire branch configuration, which means I need only 3+G NM-B for each pair, rather than a separate 2+G for the second circuit.

Sometimes I still wish I had more outlets.

All 15A and 20A outlets on first floor of garages must be GFCI protected. I haven't checked the code to see if it's extended to larger circuits, like they did with pool equipment ca.2015, but Google's your friend there. I just went with GFCI breakers on all 20A circuits when I built out my own garage, as I hate messing with and hunting GFCI outlets. Breaker panel is right by garage door, so easy to find and reset, should one ever trip. I don't recall buying GFCI breakers for the 30A and 50A circuits, which I installed to run some of my larger antique machinery, but I can check next time I'm out there.

 

[WinterDeere]

Only actual safety standards should be required.

While I'm sure availability for EV charging was probably part of the motivation for some, the NEC was able to legitimately claim this as a safety standard, by citing too many examples of homeowners overloading a single garage circuit.

Of course the circuit protection device (breaker / fuse) should prevent an overload from turning into a safety issue, but we all know that examples of failed breakers and improperly-sized fuses abound. If buildings are burning down, and it can be shown or argued that a change to the code could prevent such cases, it's usually going to get passed.

 

[California]

A 20a 110v outlet can charge an EV at 3 to 4 miles added, per hour of charge. For some families/applications this may be all they need.

 

[ponytug]

We have both 20A, and 50A outlets for charging in 50A garage. A two pole 50A GFI breaker is not that much more expensive than a regular breaker these days. So, far the 50A is a hypothetical use case for charging, but it comes in handy for the welder once in a blue moon.

I'm not wild about the standby power draw of 1-3W per outlet/breaker, but it is in a good cause.

All the best,

Peter

 

[ultrarunner]

I’ve found Hubble the most expensive but I do get what I pay for.

Hospital Spec GFCI are the most reliable and they not only should be for the price as they must be.

The cheapest outlets break easily when abused.

As a property manager GFCI continue to generate service calls and majority it’s a defective cord or appliance…

I won’t use outside GFCI outlets and instead opt for breakers.

 

[grsthegreat]

I’ve found Hubble the most expensive but I do get what I pay for.

Hospital Spec GFCI are the most reliable and they not only should be for the price as they must be.

The cheapest outlets break easily when abused.

As a property manager GFCI continue to generate service calls and majority it’s a defective cord or appliance…

I won’t use outside GFCI outlets and instead opt for breakers.

I don’t know… every single Gfci outlet in my house is 29 years old. Never replaced a single one. There all Home Depot units.

 

[ultrarunner]

I don’t know… every single Gfci outlet in my house is 29 years old. Never replaced a single one. There all Home Depot units.

Inside or outside?

I’ve had all the Levington GFCI in outside locations go bad…

Had a few in bathrooms go bad…

The hospital build was over 30 years ago and so far have never replaced a single outlet… GFCI or non GFCI

I’m always finding broken receptacles in residential rentals after move out…

 

[ponytug]

FWIW: I haven't been as fortunate as @grsthegreat as the Leviton GFCIs here are at about 50% survival after eighteen years. I've been replacing them with hospital or commercial outlets.

All the best, Peter

 

[dstig1]

What’s the logic of GFI for a door opener? They are on the ceiling and I suppose any thing anywhere can get wet but I feel like I’m missing something. When my shop was wired it was carefully inspected, by me. I went out and asked the guy if he knew what he was doing, he said yes and I left him alone. I told him where I wanted outlets and let him have at it.

The logic? People who need an excuse to justify their jobs in code writing. There used to be an exception for any outlet 7' or more from the floor or other reach that GFCI was not required. This was known as the garage opener exception. There was another exception that grsthegreat alluded to allowing no GFCI for a single outlet positioned behind a permanently installed appliance, aka the basement freezer exception. The reason for the exception WAS logical: they are not accessible, so GFCI was not really doing anything good, and the potential downside for a freezer was stupid obvious. Eliminating the exception had no good justification.

I built in 2013 and we were on the 2008 NEC at the time which I believe was the first to disallow those very logical exceptions. I wasn't sure if the inspector was that picky or not, but I wired my garage door openers from a feed at the light switch, so if he forced it, I could put a GFCI there, so it was within reach. And yes he was that much of a ******** (well proven on many encounters) that he forced it, so I put a deadfront GFCI in there to control them. Still there, as it has not caused trouble so far. Similar issue with my freezer plug, but I later pulled the GFCI from that one when I went down there and it had tripped for no reason, killing the freezer. Fortunately I had been down there an hour before that so knew it had been out less than an hour, so all was OK, but I pulled that stupid GFCI right away.

To some of the other points, I have had to replace a couple GFCI outlets over these 12 years, and I ended up returning 3 or 4 AFCI breakers as they were either buzzing like crazy or randomly tripping for no reason. Not sure these new requirements are better at all.

 

[grsthegreat]

Inside or outside?

I’ve had all the Levington GFCI in outside locations go bad…

Had a few in bathrooms go bad…

The hospital build was over 30 years ago and so far have never replaced a single outlet… GFCI or non GFCI

I’m always finding broken receptacles in residential rentals after move out…

Both exterior and interior have lasted ok, but there all under a overhang.

 

[ultrarunner]

I don’t know how several generations survived before modern electric codes.

I grew up in a home with no grounded outlets and Federal Pacific Breakers…

Spent a lot of time at grandparents home with fuses predating breakers…

Someone once told me idiot proofing is so idiots will be safe.

 

[ultrarunner]

Both exterior and interior have lasted ok, but there all under a overhang.

Makes sense… I know the quality of work is exceptional.

 

[BnRidge]

I don’t know how several generations survived before modern electric codes.

1959

 

[WinterDeere]

I don’t know how several generations survived before modern electric codes.

Some here know I'm both an old house nut and an electrical engineer, so working on antique electrical systems has been a very big part of my life.

The reality is that yes, several generations survived before modern electric codes, just as they did before penicillan and seatbelts. And just like those two examples, many people were injured or burned their homes to the ground. The most common problem was prior to the establishment of standardized wiring gauges, with so-called "electricians" running wiring that was way too light for the load it was carrying, overheating and starting fires. You can find find plenty of stories about that in the WW1 era in both the US and Europe.

Anyone older than 60 today can remember houses being wired with aluminum in the 1970's, and burning to the ground in the 1980's. And who above 50 doesn't know someone who's been shocked everytime they touched their kitchen range and toaster or refrigerator at the same time? Code is good.

1959
View attachment 4798659

The irony about the wire nut instructions above is that they are wrong, by modern convention. You need to continue twisting until you have the insulated wires wrapped around each other at least two turns, to ensure the nut cannot work loose if tension is put on the wires:

Spent a lot of time at grandparents home with fuses predating breakers…

Houses in the neighborhood where I grew up were all built on panels of Edison fuses. Not a damn one of them was properly-sized when we moved into that house. I remember seeing 30A fuses on AWG-14 circuits, because some prior owner got tired of having their 15A fuses blow. Of course the panels are almost never labeled with what size fuse should be in each slot. Those things are truly dangerous, in the hands of most homeowners, and may be responsible for more electrical fires in homes than nearly any other invention, ever.