Sine wave Inverter type back up generator for well pump.?

[CalG]

I have the Honda eu7000i inverter generator. It is 5500 watts continuous, 7000 watt peak, and has had no issue running the well pump at either of my homes. At the house in Maine, the generator was outside, less than 15 ft from the bedroom. We can't hear it running when we go to bed. We love how quiet it is. Yes it is heavy but I don't find it all that difficult to move around. We do make sure the breakers are off for the oven, dryer and the 5 ton AC unit before we fire up the generator. As generator can't handle the well pump and any of those 3 items. It handles everything else with no issues. We do have propane cook top and water heater so the generator doesn't need to handle those loads. Wife loves that it is push button start with fuel injection so no worry about pulling a cord and properly applying the choke.

How have you wired it into your home in consideration of the two power supply load balancing?

 

[bigtiller]

I have the Honda eu7000i inverter generator. It is 5500 watts continuous, 7000 watt peak, and has had no issue running the well pump at either of my homes. At the house in Maine, the generator was outside, less than 15 ft from the bedroom. We can't hear it running when we go to bed. We love how quiet it is. Yes it is heavy but I don't find it all that difficult to move around. We do make sure the breakers are off for the oven, dryer and the 5 ton AC unit before we fire up the generator. As generator can't handle the well pump and any of those 3 items. It handles everything else with no issues. We do have propane cook top and water heater so the generator doesn't need to handle those loads. Wife loves that it is push button start with fuel injection so no worry about pulling a cord and properly applying the choke.

I've still got my man card but my performance days are far behind me. Anything short of level concrete makes moving that 262 pound genny a work out.

 

[CalG]

I've still got my man card but my performance days are far behind me. Anything short of level concrete makes moving that 262 pound genny a work out.

I put down mini-ramps when bringing in a barrow full of firewood over the downstairs door threshhold. Might be a pair of two inch bumps.

But I'm getting stronger with age, I can now carry $100 worth of groceries with one hand! ;-)

 

[ponytug]

Yes

Really all I desire to do is bump up to about 6500 watts as "wife protection". ;-)

I do not want a whole house back up power station.

the 4500 watt unit has worked for the past several years under supervision.

There is a second hand winco 6000 (11 HP) offered on the local craigslist.

For $350, it will be hard to make too great an error.

The Honda "QUIET" part might have been too enticing. ;-)

I bet the Winco is loud as anything!

Every WINCO that I've been around was definitely not quiet, but at the price...

How have you wired it into your home in consideration of the two power supply load balancing?

I think that using a 240V generator on most homes is always going to be an exercise in load balancing the two 120V circuits. I have to say that as a result, I have tended to buy 240V appliances and motors when I can. (Did I mention that we lose power frequently?) My spouse delegates generator duty to me, so I have no advice to give on that one.

I have a 5kW (6.5kW surge) diesel genset that is loud and heavy, but it is mechanically and electrically simple and just runs. I like everything about it, except the noise, really dislike the noise. When I have to move it any distance on a slope, the FEL comes out. To me it is just not worth a runaway generator. I have a bigger genset that is closer to 1,200lbs, which requires careful use of the forks, but it is much, much quieter, and it will happily run our well all day.

All the best,

Peter

 

[CalG]

Every WINCO that I've been around was definitely not quiet, but at the price...



I think that using a 240V generator on most homes is always going to be an exercise in load balancing the two 120V circuits. I have to say that as a result, I have tended to buy 240V appliances and motors when I can. (Did I mention that we lose power frequently?) My spouse delegates generator duty to me, so I have no advice to give on that one.

I have a 5kW (6.5kW surge) diesel genset that is loud and heavy, but it is mechanically and electrically simple and just runs. I like everything about it, except the noise, really dislike the noise. When I have to move it any distance on a slope, the FEL comes out. To me it is just not worth a runaway generator. I have a bigger genset that is closer to 1,200lbs, which requires careful use of the forks, but it is much, much quieter, and it will happily run our well all day.

All the best,

Peter

The unit mentioned is Honda powered, so there is an expectation of sound quality just in that.
A sheet of plywood goes a long way toward sound redirection. $40 vs $4000. hmmmm

 

[CalG]

?
P=IxE

E=I^2 R

A gen does not put out power that is not consumed ;-)

 

[ponytug]

The unit mentioned is Honda powered, so there is an expectation of sound quality just in that.
A sheet of plywood goes a long way toward sound redirection. $40 vs $4000. hmmmm

In my experience, open frame Hondas are loud, though not in the WINCO league.

But I have found a sheet or three of plywood is more than a few cards short of a full deck in sound reduction. BTDT. "Silent" generators have a bunch of items to suppress the sound.

At the end of the day, it is your money.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[CalG]

In my experience, open frame Hondas are loud, though not in the WINCO league.

But I have found a sheet or three of plywood is more than a few cards short of a full deck in sound reduction. BTDT. "Silent" generators have a bunch of items to suppress the sound.

At the end of the day, it is your money.

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

Actually, I was just looking at that Load balancing diagram for 240V operation.

I can't see any requirement to use the single phase outlets, so all I need do is to distribute the single phase loads, like the fridge and freezer to alternate lines on the panel.

That may mean shuffling a couple of wires , breakers and labels, but that is not a problem.

I need to spend a bit of time with the amp clamp ;-)

 

[TN8Man]

Not sure what the question mark is for as the equation shows they're the same power.

One advantage of the EU7000 in 120v mode is that it gangs the two sides of the generator together so you do not need to try to balance the load between them.

The question mark is the use of a 120V mode vs 240V mode where you can get up to 30A (fused) on a single output if that's what you need. You are however limited to 45.8 amps total when using both 30A outputs at the same time. The 30 amp limit and fuse is due to the 30A connector rating itself.

In the 240V mode you are limited to 22.9A on each output.

The eu7000 is a high quality geny that is reliable and will last for a long time if you take care of it. I still have two eu2000's I bought over 20 years ago that still run great! They are quiet too which is a good thing for many reasons.

 

[IXLR8]

How have you wired it into your home in consideration of the two power supply load balancing?

I guess I don't worry about load balancing. In 8 years it hasn't been an issue that I am aware of in either house. I just have a 30 amp 2 pole breaker in the panel that that the generator is connected to. I have an interlock on the panel that prevents the MAINS breaker from being on at the same time the generator breaker is on. Both breakers can NOT be on at the same time.
EDIT: Load Balancing- The generator was not happy when my 120v Air Compressor tried to start up. It failed to start the compressor tripped the breaker on the generator. After that I made sure the compressor was off before using the generator. If the compressor was plugged directly into the generator using the 120v receptacle, the generator had no issues starting the compressor.

 

[ponytug]

Actually, I was just looking at that Load balancing diagram for 240V operation.

I can't see any requirement to use the single phase outlets, so all I need do is to distribute the single phase loads, like the fridge and freezer to alternate lines on the panel.

That may mean shuffling a couple of wires , breakers and labels, but that is not a problem.

I need to spend a bit of time with the amp clamp ;-)

I would not sweat it too much. It does not need to be an exact split. Balancing the loads just makes the wear and tear (primarily heat on the insulation in the generator) less. Plus, balanced loads reduce the return current on the neutral.

I tend to monitor the voltage in the two phases and keep them close, knowing that it is a moving target as loads cycle on and off. I also have a plug in Hz (frequency) meter in the house just to keep an eye on how the generator is running.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LittleBill21]

unless you care about the quiet. your original generator should be fine, unless it shows low voltage. people are too caught up in this dirty power

 

[grsthegreat]

Me, i can care less about a quiet or a loud generator, as long as im kept fed, either warm or cool (seasonal) and food protected and animals watered. My genny is far enough from the house that all i hear is a hum, and im a long ways from the neighbor.

When power is out here, alot of neighbors pull out their portable gennys, and there alot louder than my standby.

Actually, in my business, during a long outage, i ONLY get calls to go service a generator when its quiet…..ie not working. So a quiet generator is a pain in my a**.

Just saying


Its alot like me complaining that my diesel trucks all drip oil. His response, its a diesel truck. The only time they dont leak oil is when there out of oil.

 

[steve tym]

This what I get from Franklin:
Nothing has changed about 2-wire motors and inverter generators.

The electronic BIAC 2-wire switch still does not like the modified sinewave coming from an inverter generator.



We see the same problem with inverter generators and SubDrive Controllers.

Even though the generator people say it’s as good as a sinewave generator, it doesn’t always work

 

[LittleBill21]

This what I get from Franklin:
Nothing has changed about 2-wire motors and inverter generators.

The electronic BIAC 2-wire switch still does not like the modified sinewave coming from an inverter generator.



We see the same problem with inverter generators and SubDrive Controllers.

Even though the generator people say it’s as good as a sinewave generator, it doesn’t always work

what inverter generator outputs modified sine wave?

 

[TN8Man]

Got the following from SHEDHEADS

Power Quality​

One of the problems with more inexpensive generators is that the power isn’t always great. Under load, the sine wave of AC power tends to distort. But the Honda eu7000is is capable of producing a very clean sine wave. The total harmonic distortion is a shocking 4%. For reference, the grid power in New York is commonly rated at 6%. This makes it ideal for anyone who’s trying to wire in a backup generator for a home, or run some kind of high end electronics that require a clean sine wave, the Honda eu7000is is a clear winner.

 

[ponytug]

This what I get from Franklin:
Nothing has changed about 2-wire motors and inverter generators.

The electronic BIAC 2-wire switch still does not like the modified sinewave coming from an inverter generator.



We see the same problem with inverter generators and SubDrive Controllers.

Even though the generator people say it’s as good as a sinewave generator, it doesn’t always work

Yes, modified sine wave, aka square wave, is very hard on motors, but it is not what an inverter generator puts out. (At least no inverter generator that I have ever looked at.) Cheap 12V inverters are usually modified sine wave inverters, and that is why they are hard on motors.

Franklin produces many inverter (VFD) capable motors, but that is a different motor, e.g. more robust insulation, and motor laminations compatible with a range of input frequencies. I wonder if your contact a Franklin confused "inverter ready motors"/VFD motors with an inverter generator, which does produce the 60Hz pure sine wave power the Franklin BIAC apparently expects.

All the best,

Peter

 

[LouNY]

Yes, modified sine wave, aka square wave, is very hard on motors, but it is not what an inverter generator puts out. (At least no inverter generator that I have ever looked at.) Cheap 12V inverters are usually modified sine wave inverters, and that is why they are hard on motors.

Franklin produces many inverter (VFD) capable motors, but that is a different motor, e.g. more robust insulation, and motor laminations compatible with a range of input frequencies. I wonder if your contact a Franklin confused "inverter ready motors"/VFD motors with an inverter generator, which does produce the 60Hz pure sine wave power the Franklin BIAC apparently expects.

All the best,

Peter

I do not believe any inverter produces a true sine wave, it takes driven pole generator to produce a true sine wave some of the better quality inverters will provide a very good multi step square wave which can behave almost as a sine wave.

 

[grsthegreat]

Im not up to snuff on inverter units, but its my understanding that the engine charges a battery, and the battery runs thru an inverter to provide power.

I agree, they’re cleaner, but no wheres near true sine wave. Utility generators have very huge number of poles on the rotor , like 24 plus, instead of the 2 to 4 that most whole house and portables have.

The inverters use electronics to clean up the power to a point

 

[etpm]

OK folks, here is a little basic education about inverters. An inverter takes DC power and then "inverts it" by using solid state switching devices to feed the DC to either side of a transformer. By doing this AC is produced. Square wave AC. A transformer is also an inductor and many inductors are used in inverters. Even though a transformer is an inductor an inductor does not need to be a transformer. An inductor is basically a coil of wire. Anyway, after the first stage of switching to get an AC voltage from a DC voltage other stages of switching can occur in an inverter. What makes inverters so efficient is frequency. The higher frequency that the AC is the less wire, usually copper, needs to be used in any inductors. This means transformers can be smaller. So, the inverter uses high frequency until the final stage when it must output 60 cycle AC here in the USA. But since all the AC inside the inverter comes from switching back and forth the AC is not a sine wave but is instead a square wave. So the output will be something that looks like a stepped version of a sine wave. Because it is. Now, these steps can be very large and few in number which means the power will be very hard for many motors to use. Or the steps can be high in number and very small which motors like better. Finally, the stepped output can be "filtered" so that the steps are evened out. This filtering is done with capacitors and inductors. Both inductors and capacitors are energy storing devices. So what happens when they are used is that energy is stored and then released. This storing and releasing absorbs the voltage spikes on the square wave and then releases the voltage on the low voltage part of the square wave. So any inverter power supply that delivers good quality AC power must have good filtering and the square wave must be chopped into many small parts. All this filtering and switching, or chopping, takes extra parts and good engineering. That's why a good inverter power supply costs more money.
Eric