How much do you care about pre emissions

[t44e6]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

I do not like not being able to keep my own machines in service. Newer machines have many systems unrelated to emissions that use microprocessors and electronics that are to me a huge PITA. If I was running my machines all day every day, I might find the hassle is worth it. But going forward with possible and likely issues with a global supply chain my though is simpler = better. Buying an older machine is always dependent on condition and parts availability.

 

[LouNY]

I

IMO, Emissions are the cost of doing business. Can you do it cheaper - yes*, buy pre-emission equipment. We as a planet, country, province/state have agreed that certain emissions standards should be met. Actively seeking out and overusing outdated equipment is just a legal (but immoral?) loophole to that. Deleting emissions equipment because we don't like it is cheating the rest of us. Whether you get caught or not is not the question. We all have to sleep at night, and whether you do that with a $5000 luxury mattress paid for with pollution, or a second hand one and a clean conscience is for each of us to figure out ourselves.

*Can you actually do it cheaper? Generally we don't directly pay for environmental emissions, but if we did - I don't know. What the cost of a ton of CO, or NOx, or any other pollutants are worth plus the costs of trucking them to a repair shop. What is the cost of little Timmy getting sick, or not being able to play. I don't think you can do it cheaper, you are just "stealing" from the rest of us.

The vermiculite mine in Libby, Montana killed hundreds of people so their owners could make more money and this debate in a lot of ways is no different.

Also, just because someone else does something doesn't mean it's right for us to. ie a 3rd world country, still burning coal for power, and not caring about emissions on their tractors is different than what a lot of us face.

Having said all that I have an old pre-emissions tractor, for the same reason I drive an old chevy pickup. It's 70 HP, 4x4 and 3 years in, including purchasing it's cost me less than $5000 Canadian. It's what I can afford, and I do sleep well at night.

One other thought - in a lot of cases the equipment can run with a failed emissions system. They are de-rated, or otherwise "broke down" because if it wasn't programmed that way so many of us would continue running them (that doesn't apply to plugged cats/ particulate filters). They are there to "force" you to do the right thing.

Each of us contribute our tiny part to either the solution, or the problem.

I see that you are quite comfortable with the over bearing over burdening government bureaucracy that is killing us, you are quite welcome to your opinion but It sure isn't mine.
Delete, delete, delete.
And besides which whats wrong with burning coal, I've been using coal for supplemental heat for years. I may stop next year because of the physical requirements and the cost which has gone through the roof for our good coal that is being exported to that damned china at an alarming rate.

 

[scott_vt]

Good Afternoon JackDaniels,

We all have to sleep at night, and whether you do that with a $5000 luxury mattress paid for with pollution, or a second hand one and a clean conscience is for each of us to figure out ourselves.

Well, comfortable sleep is pretty important ! Im going with the comfortable mattress, and I will sleep fine at night with a clear conscience !

 

[5030]

The cats on my 2003 F150 are clogged up pretty bad at 150K miles right now.

I know people say Seafoam is snake oil but I use their Top End intake cleaner on my Focus RS at every oil change and you'd be amazed at what comes out the tailpipe. Not the Seafoam in the can but the aerosol one with the included straw. You have to put it in post MAF sensor however, it will destroy a MAF sensor.

It works for me just fine.

 

[paulsharvey]

For Cats, and DPF, would "the dip" a homemade peroxide-vinegar combo, commonly used to clean carbon out of suppressors, work?

 

[gckshea]

That's what, 4 states out of 50 that do emissions checks?

Oregon does emissions testing, but only in certain metro counties. So head for the hills and you're fine!

I agree our huge costs of regulation and implementation of poorly designed emissions systems, attached to deadlines, is the equivalent of pissing on a forest fire, and feeling all-so-righteous for doing our part. What stupidity.

 

[dadohead]

We as a planet, country, province/state have agreed that certain emissions standards should be met.

Really??? When was  that vote? I too want clean air but won't sacrifice our economy to carry the rest of the world.

The fact is that unelected bureaucrats are slowly outlawing my gas car to be replaced by EV's. A machine that requires nasty rare earth metals, which are mined in far away countries, processed in China, shipped back, ending with a product that can't be recycled. All the while countries that hate us are encouraging us on! Consumers are NOT asking for this.

 

[Fields_mj]

The cats on my 2003 F150 are clogged up pretty bad at 150K miles right now.

It took the big 3 noticeably longer to figure out emission systems than it took the rest of the world. Ford has been shafting their customers like that for a LONG time. Just because a company knows how to build something the right way, doesn't mean they can't make a LOT more money building and selling a piece of crap. That said, the cat on an '03 being clogged up is not indicative of a design or manufacturing problem. They have an expected life span by nature. Sounds like its time for yours to be changed out.

DEF is a whole other beast. To clarify, I've HEARD that they are getting it figured out finally on the truck platforms, but I have NO personal experience to back that statement up. I've just heard that for the past 5 years or so, people haven't been spending 10s of thousands of $$ to repair their relatively new diesel trucks. I'm not sure if that's because things are getting better, or if people are just getting numb to the fact that they are going to have to drop $20k in repairs every couple of years to keep their tow vehicle on the road...

 

[Edstir]

I have no idea how many. I know California does, so does Ohio and so does Illinois. Michigan don't (I live there) but who else, I have no idea.

I live in a small Illinois town and because of the low population (5K) there is no emission test.

 

[Fields_mj]

Really??? When was  that vote? I too want clean air but won't sacrifice our economy to carry the rest of the world.

The fact is that unelected bureaucrats are slowly outlawing my gas car to be replaced by EV's. A machine that requires nasty rare earth metals, which are mined in far away countries, processed in China, shipped back, ending with a product that can't be recycled. All the while countries that hate us are encouraging us on! Consumers are NOT asking for this.

Couldn't agree more. Realistically, this should be regulated at the state level. The only authority that the federal government has in this arena is the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and the purpose of that clause was to keep commerce regulations fair between the states. It had nothing to do with forcing manufactures to adhere to federal bureaucratic mandates. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about how much progress we made on things like clean air, and I'm glad that we're not just dumping our used oil out in the driveway any more. Now they've taken it so far that we're doing MORE damage to the environment because the only think they will ALLOW the mfgs to make is junk that has to be thrown away and replaced every few years. If the federal government wants to influence manufacturers, they should be offering tax incentives for products that meet their qualifications and standards.

 

[paulsharvey]

So; as I've posted before; I bought a 2022 CK2610 tractor, same frame and engine ad a CK3510 and virtually same as 4010 (there is a filter or two different, but same block). If it wasn't for I believe a $6k price jump, I would have bought the more HP, probably the 3510. Now, sure Kioti, Ford, Kubota, Chevy, everyone is going to have an up-charge for the power; but if that was, say $2k, I would have bought that. Even if it came with the emissions equipment, at $2k more. The reason I didn't, the significant additional cost of the emissions system. Given the choice of 25hp and no emissions, vs 35-40hp with emissions, I would buy the HP, if the upcharge/cost of the emissions system wasn't so high.

BTW; Yes, I know about the screw and I haven't yet, but may in the future

 

[ultrarunner]

Couldn't agree more. Realistically, this should be regulated at the state level. The only authority that the federal government has in this arena is the authority to regulate interstate commerce, and the purpose of that clause was to keep commerce regulations fair between the states. It had nothing to do with forcing manufactures to adhere to federal bureaucratic mandates. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited about how much progress we made on things like clean air, and I'm glad that we're not just dumping our used oil out in the driveway any more. Now they've taken it so far that we're doing MORE damage to the environment because the only think they will ALLOW the mfgs to make is junk that has to be thrown away and replaced every few years. If the federal government wants to influence manufacturers, they should be offering tax incentives for products that meet their qualifications and standards.

I guess California does it right in that it tends to lead the way with State specific rules that other states adopt?

 

[paulsharvey]

Heck, if you could buy something like a 60-80hp diesel Japanese mini truck, without emissions, air bags, and all that; I bet you could have a brand new one for $12k, and I would consider that as a 2nd vehicle; but emissions And safety stuff does add thousands and thousands onto the price. I'll bet there is every bit of $8k plus added onto the base price of any on road vehicle from regs;


Edit; that $12k price tag could be $15k and have AC; otherwise, I'm talking out of my butt, I want AC

 

[Jframe]

Maybe it's not so much tractors as it is what Americans lost when no one was looking. In my area people are very tired of the government dictating everything any law-abiding person can do even as law-breakers seem to operate with impunity and in plain sight. So it's difficult to find a Cummins equipped Ram pickup that hasn't been deleted. Accordingly, people don't like tier IV. People have to drive to Whitehorse, YT to buy toilets that work as the feds are afraid toilets use too much water - even though this part of the state will likely approach 100 inches of rain & snow this year at sea level. The government tells you what lightbulbs to use. If you see a large feather on the ground you can be fined big time, even go to jail, if you pick up the feather and it came from any one of many protected birds. A buddy took the National Park Service to court twice over a very similar situation - twice - and he won in the US Supreme Court both times but it cost $2 million. I'm not sure I fully understand the logic but some people say that government likes to control us because we had our hats handed to us in Viet Nam and Afghanistan. Also, it seems to me that as engines are inhibited by a controlling (out of control perhaps) government everyone just increases the horsepower they buy: earlier today I walked by a boat that has 4 brand new Mercury 500 horse 12-cylinder outboards, each had stainless dual props, pretty impressive but a lot of metal haul around.

 

[JethroB]

I dont think anywhere in the SE US does emissions checks, although maybe Charlotte or Atlanta; but NC and GA don't, nor does FLa.

I'm not against clean air, but I don't think diesel engines are a problem for clean air. I know it does kinda hurt many of us to say, but maybe some of the enivro regs from 1980s have helped. Things are a lot better now; the problem is, IMO, the agency's can't help but want to inflict more stringent regs every year.

Now, CDL vehicles are always subject to getting pulled over and harassed.

Metro Atlanta countys do require emissions testing. Something like 14 counties. Half the states population lives there. Keep’em there please.

 

[paulsharvey]

Ok, let's maybe look at this in a different, theortical approach. If you could pre-pay a "carbon emissions tax", of say 10% of the purchase price, and not have emissions; would you pay 10% higher price to not have the emissions equipment. How about 15% or 25%. What I'm getting at, is we each vote with our wallet, and my wallet is pretty dang against any additional cost.

So, I paid 20,500 for the Ck2610; and a CK3510 was $24,500, which is less of a difference than I thought. I wouldn't have been willing to pay 24.5 and an additional carbon tax or whatever

 

[JackDaniels1982]

I

I see that you are quite comfortable with the over bearing over burdening government bureaucracy that is killing us, you are quite welcome to your opinion but It sure isn't mine.
Delete, delete, delete.
And besides which whats wrong with burning coal, I've been using coal for supplemental heat for years. I may stop next year because of the physical requirements and the cost which has gone through the roof for our good coal that is being exported to that damned china at an alarming rate.

I actually hate bureaucracy, although I don't know many people that love it. I find it a necessary evil to keep the general "us", fair and on the right track. What is wrong with burning coal, well - aside from the mining practices (someone else was commenting about electric car elements needing mined), it produces sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, CO2 and particulates in the air. These contribute locally and globally to respiratory illnesses (but so does smoking!), smog and acid rain. A quick google search of "what is wrong with burning coal" will list a host of other examples. It's the same thing, in my mind - selfish at worst, short sighted at best.

 

[paulsharvey]

I think some people have missed the point; it's done, the regs exist, and you don't have any say in it; it's like gravity. The point is, now, do you care enough to sacrifice in another area, age, power, ect. Some people clearly are willing to buy a 14 year old machine at like new prices; but I'm guessing that's 1/3rd of the people; and as time goes on, that's going to be 20+ year old machines, and less and less people willing to go that route; As a primary machine. Sure, tons of guys will still have a MF135 diesel for raking or whatever, but that's not what I mean

 

[paulsharvey]

What made me post this, is the never ending replies to people on what machine to buy; and it's a well used, 35hp Kubota, someone asking if $24k is too much; and everytime people pop up with "it's pre-emissions, so it's worth every bit of $24k, if not $30k" and there are multiple, brand new, equivalent 35hp machines available, with a warranty, for that price, or almost same price.

 

[bluetim0]

Can anyone answer the DPF question, why so we have a filter, that traps super fine particles in the exhaust only to heat them up and blow them out when the filter is full. And if you are driving a ute in a stubble paddock, and the DPF does a region burn up goes your ute and paddock in flames. And don't forget dinosaurs, remember having to pull on the choke cable, depending on the vehicle, you had to have your tongue sticking out the right direction, and even then had to wait 5 minutes plus before you could drive off. Good ECU's and EFI have been wonderful.