How much do you care about pre emissions

[paulsharvey]

So, this comes up over and over, and it seems there is a percentage of people that seem to be so anti emission, they would pay a significant premium to not have it. Now, I'll give my take; I don't want to have to have them; I don't want to pay more money for the system; and I don't see them as beneficial;

BUT; for everyone saying to avoid anything with emissions, do you always cut the Cats off your car? Are you willing to pay today's market price, for a pre-cat vehicle? For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car or tractor emissions, and your free to modify as you please; but most of us just replace the O2 sensor when it goes out.

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

On most machines, there are ways to bypass the system, or delete it, and as long as you aren't a large commercial operation, who makes enemies, no one is going to hunt you down

Anyways; I wouldn't pay a premium to not have the system, wouldn't bypass or delete, Until a problem comes up; and if a problem with the system came up, I would happily delete or bypass and never loose any sleep

 

[mrmikey]

Given the choice of equal price; would anyone choose a 10+ year old machine, over a brand new one, just because of emissions?

Without a second thought 10 year old, obviously dependent on condition.
The way I look at it it right or wrong. The machine worked well before adding crap that fails and causes you to have to spend more money, lowers performance, costs more to initially install and maintain.
I'm old school, give me the scenario you turn the key which closes the solenoid which turns the starter to start the engine. You throw an ECM, BCM and heaven knows how many *CM's in there you're adding how many more failure points for how much $$$. My two cents worth.

 

[ericm979]

If the emissions systems work, I'm all for them. I have not had a problem with the emissions systems on my Tier IV tractor or any of the many cars, trucks and motorcycles I've owned. I like clean air. The air in the SF bay area is visibly cleaner now than it was 30 years ago, even though there's more vehicles on the roads. That's almost entirely due to vehicle emissions standards.

I find that vehicles with ECMs are great if they have OBD2. OBD1 was kind of useless. OBD2 gets you a ton of useful data, especially if you have a manufacturer specific scan tool. I don't mind buying the tools, they're the modern equivalent of timing lights and dwell meters.

 

[5030]

Don't matter one bit to me. Both my tractors, Kubota M9's are pre emissions and I bought them new and they ain't going anywhere anyhow, so I'll never own one anyway. Besides, I only have 4500 and 6500 hours on the machines so they are just broken in. Kubota's VTE engines will go at least 50K hours without any major repairs other than valve adjustments, oil and filter changes and air filters and.. Interestingly, they are worth as much as I paid for them in 2002 and 2001 respectively. Of course that is in today's inflated and basically worthless dollars. Not that I'd sell either. I fully expect them to outlast me and I'm 74 so my time here is somewhat limited.

One thing I did is, I made an agreement with my dealer that when I pass, he gets all the equipment and sells it all, keeps 10% and gives my wife or my estate, the proceeds. and I have a lot of stuff besides the 2 tractors and it's all in excellent condition, kept inside and cared for correctly. That don't include all the firearms or my well equipped machine and fabrication shop either. Told my wife when I pass, she will have to contract with a machinery liquidator to sell all the machine tools and welders and then there are the 3 Triumph and one Norton motorcycle I own as well. How about 2 Bridgeports, 2 surface grinders and 4 engine lathes one is a LeBlond Servo shift, the other 3 are South Bend, CNC plasma table, Tig welder with water cooled torch, 2 plasma cutters, 2 Hobart MIG machines, a Lincoln Ranger 8 engine drive welder, 2 roll around tool boxes stuffed with tools and enough tooling to run everything, all in a heated and air conditioned shop with an overhead crane.

I do have 2 full time employees as well. Been with me for years.

That don't include all the farm equipment or the farm itself and it's all paid for plus 3 rental properties, all rented with long term renters.

I ain't hurting... We still do what we want to, go out to eat a couple times a week and drive nice vehicles that are paid for as well.

Other than the cancer, life has been good to me. it will get me eventually I think but until then, I plan on enjoying myself, going hunting and generally raising hell. Got a New Mexico elk hunt booked for fall. Private land and guided. No tents, staying in a real guest house and meals prepared too. 3 of us are going plus I pulled a non resident Indiana deer tag and I will hunt on one of my hunting buds land. He owns 153 acres of semi wooded land near the Indy-Ohio border and lives on it as well. I'll probably do a late winter hunt on our land in the northern lower here in Michigan as well. Gotta keep the freezers full of meat though I do prefer Elk over deer. I still have some bear left from last year's bear hunt in New Brunswick. Frozen and hard as a brick. I'd like to do an African big game hunt so I can exercise my 338 Lapua. Problem is, the tariff's on bringing meat back, even a mount in Africa is prohibitively expensive. Maybe next year if I live long enough...

Maine moose hunt is on the bucket list as well. I have a very good and longtime friend who is a registered Maine guide and trapper. I need to live another 30 years to do it all. Problem is, I won't.

 

[5030]

If the emissions systems work, I'm all for them. I have not had a problem with the emissions systems on my Tier IV tractor or any of the many cars, trucks and motorcycles I've owned. I like clean air. The air in the SF bay area is visibly cleaner now than it was 30 years ago, even though there's more vehicles on the roads. That's almost entirely due to vehicle emissions standards.

I find that vehicles with ECMs are great if they have OBD2. OBD1 was kind of useless. OBD2 gets you a ton of useful data, especially if you have a manufacturer specific scan tool. I don't mind buying the tools, they're the modern equivalent of timing lights and dwell meters.

My only comment on that is... Tell that to China and India.as they don't give a hoot about clean air or water or anything else and what they spew into the atmosphere, we get to breathe eventually. Remember, we all live on the same planet.

Until every country on this orb gets with the program, it's all futile and why I don't get that concerned. Not just the airborne pollution, how about all the plastic waste in the ocean and elsewhere? I read there is a huge floating island of plastic waste floating in the ocean... How about that?

 

[5030]

For the vast majority of folks, nobody is checking your car

I disagree with that actually. Every state and municipality with emissions testing is sniffing your tailpipe and if you don't pass, you don't get your license plates renewed. Kalifornia is especially hard on that. So is Illinois.

 

[5030]

I have no issues running pre emissions diesels (including my diesel pickup truck) but one thing I frown on are these kids today with their chipped up and juiced up diesel pickup trucks, rolling coal, which is nothing but visible particulates and for show. I have a full Gale Banks kit on my pickup truck with tuner and it don't ever 'roll coal. because Gale knows what he's doing. Maybe a small puff rarely, but that is it. Gale's kits are all EPA certified fyi.

 

[paulsharvey]

I disagree with that actually. Every state and municipality with emissions testing is sniffing your tailpipe and if you don't pass, you don't get your license plates renewed. Kalifornia is especially hard on that. So is Illinois.

That's what, 4 states out of 50 that do emissions checks?

 

[Snobdds]

Emissions lower the per unit contaminants, but since you have to use more fuel to accomplish the same task...the aggregate contaminants are still there on the production side of diesel fuel production.

So if the Saudi's are using more resources to get more fuel to market and then the US has emisisions...is there a per unit benefit globally?

Since most people can't think beyond what their two eyes see...they think the US is all unicorns and rainbows while ignoring the production side.

Lets not talk about where the EV energy comes from...but it's the same logic and thinking.

 

[paulsharvey]

It wasn't meant as a political statemwnt/question or really an environmental one; Although, if environmental side maters for you, and you would prefer an emissions model, that's fair too.

I just can't see paying new prices for a 10/15/20 year old machine, even at only 500-1000 hours just because it's pre-emissions; when there is a 5 year old post emission machine for less, or a new machine for 10% more.

Guess, I'm in the camp, rather not have the added stuff, but I'm not going to pay more, or accept less of a machine to avoid them.

Yes, I got a under emissions machine, in the same frame as higher HP emissions machines; but that's a money choice.

 

[Snobdds]

It wasn't meant as a political statemwnt/question or really an environmental one; Although, if environmental side maters for you, and you would prefer an emissions model, that's fair too.

I just can't see paying new prices for a 10/15/20 year old machine, even at only 500-1000 hours just because it's pre-emissions; when there is a 5 year old post emission machine for less, or a new machine for 10% more.

Guess, I'm in the camp, rather not have the added stuff, but I'm not going to pay more, or accept less of a machine to avoid them.

Yes, I got a under emissions machine, in the same frame as higher HP emissions machines; but that's a money choice.

Well for you to truly understand the question, one would have to have the context of what equipment was like before emissions and after emissions.

Equipment was much simpler, lasted longer, was able to be worked on without a computer, and costed less. Today all those are flipped.

Do you think that is good?

 

[DarkBlack]

My simplified 2 cents on the initial question:

Catalyst emissions equipment on gasoline ICE, is desirable to me.
The closed loop injection system in conjunction with a catalyst exhaust produces more efficient, cleaner, reliable power.
It works very , very well.

Diesel emissions systems, I would avoid if possible. It’s much more expensive, and less reliable.
Regen designs waste fuel.
A problem caused by a government in search of eliminating diesel engines

That’s it in a nutshell

 

[dodge man]

There is little doubt the emission requirements are making the air cleaner. I look at it as gas engines in cars and trucks are relatively trouble free and make more power than ever. In the 70’s and early 80’s that wasn’t always the case. Maybe that’s where we’re at with diesel engines. They sort of have it figured out but we’re not quite there but close.

 

[paulsharvey]

Well for you to truly understand the question, one would have to have the context of what equipment was like before emissions and after emissions.

Equipment was much simpler, lasted longer, was able to be worked on without a computer, and costed less. Today all those are flipped.

Do you think that is good?

Yes, true, but that was happening unrelated to emissions. Remember old Cat-14H graders, then they came out with the Cat-14M which had fly by wire joy sticks, instead of a steering wheel, 8 levels, 3 peddles, ect. 544H loaders to I think the K model, you got an electronic bucket scale, added low oil shut offs, ect.

The electronics were coming regardless.

My old Kubota L285 would run fine with the battery removed, and had one sometimes working electrical circuit, starter. Manually kill the fuel, to shut off. Key was independent of the start button, so really, if you lost a key, you could eliminate the key swrich and just use the starter switch (or a large, well insulated screw driver)

 

[DarkBlack]

That's what, 4 states out of 50 that do emissions checks?

It’s a lot more. For instance in NH, while they don’t directly sniff the exhaust at a yearly inspection, but they do plug into the OBD2 port.
You have to jump through some significant vehicle software hoops to fool a modern software emissions integrity check

 

[4570Man]

That's what, 4 states out of 50 that do emissions checks?

That’s county regulated not state for the most part. My county doesn’t but other counties in the state do. I’d guess vehicle emission testing is done somewhere in all 50 states.

 

[LouNY]

New York does in the entire state via the obd port and some localities have tailpipe sniffers.

 

[Paystar]

After running 5 class 8 trucks with SCR and now running heavy equipment with it, I will never ever own anything with a DPF or SCR.
I only buy Kubota B series and RTV's for my yard maintenance because they are under the 26 h.p. threshold, I have bigger antique tractors for heavier ground engaging work, and I went back to gasoline powered pickups.
I don't like wasting my money on junk.

Do I avoid emissions systems on gasoline powered engines? No not at all, because they work reliably, something no new diesel can do.

 

[5030]

That's what, 4 states out of 50 that do emissions checks?

I have no idea how many. I know California does, so does Ohio and so does Illinois. Michigan don't (I live there) but who else, I have no idea.

 

[5030]

The thing I don't like nor understand is, you have to run the new emissions compliant diesels at high rpm which, in my view, flies in the face of what a diesel is all about. Diesels are supposed to be high torque, low rpm engines, not high rpm engines and it seems to me that the regenerations waste diesel anyway.

Far as gas engines in vehicles go, the automakers seem to have that issue worked out. I remember back in the 60's when cars had air pumps and more hoses than China had rice and when you shut them off, they kept on running. Think it was called 'dieseling'...

Back before I retired from the Western Star dealership in Toledo, Ohio, 60 percent of the work in the shop was emissions related and mostly DEF dosing units that failed. For a while I had a steady diet of TIG welding new access bungs in 'One Boxes' for class 8 diesel trucks. I did them at home in my shop and they delivered them to me. I got 200 bucks a box for about 30 minutes of work and Detroit Diesel provided all the hardware to weld them up. A new One Box at that time was over 1300 bucks if you could get one. The One Box on a big diesel truck contains all the emissions hardware and the particulate filter as well. The outfit I worked for bought a filter cleaning machine as well and they cleaned filters for everyone. All the 'ash' had to go to a hazardous waste landfill too.

been away for a while now so maybe the issues are sorted out, I don't know. I do know that it gets cold up here and DEF freezes in the holding tank and it has to be heated to flow. The trucks had coolant heaters as well as 12 volt resistance heaters in the DEF tanks.

My issue with tractors is two fold. One, the emissions components are not easily accessable, you have to have a proprietary by brand diagnostic tool and two, they seem to be failure prone. I know at the Kubota dealer where I work part time delivering new units, Dennis hates working on them. He told me they are a nightmare. Guess that is why, when I need work done in the shop, he always fits me in. He likes working on non emissions compliant engines.

Not for me and never will be.

Guy down the road has a fleet of newer John Deere ag tractors and he told me the dealer's techs are always out there in his workshop, working on them.

Like I said, cars and light trucks, they seem to have the bugs worked out of them but diesels are another story.