Educate me on having cattle

[WW2017]

Eddie, so sorry for the loss of your brother. I lost my big brother 6 years ago and I still wish he was around so I could get his advice about cattle and so many other things we used to talk about.

You're getting lots of good advice about what to do in this situation so I won't add too much to that. But I can tell you a couple of things from our perspective as "small herd hobby farm" people. I grew up with cattle and have had my own for several years, just on a small scale as we only have 10 head. I don't expect to make much money on them, but for the most part, they pay their own way, provide a few tax deductions, and keep us and a few of our customers fed with good quality, grass fed beef.

We have a second property about 45 minutes away. We only use it for hunting, fishing, camping and to cut hay 3 times a year. With our own cattle, sheep, chickens, goats and rabbits here at home, and both of us still working full time, I would not want to be running to the other place a few times a week to check on them, although I've certainly been tempted to run a herd there as well, but I love having cattle.

However, I got some really good advice about a year ago when we had to put my dad in a nursing home. He had a small herd as well and we only live 10 minutes away. I was going to buy his herd and my neighbor, an old cattle and row crop farmer, told me not to overextend myself because I might end up not enjoying any of the cattle, either mine or the ones at my parent's place.

I'm glad I took his advice because to me, there is nothing more peaceful than being here at our farm, with our animals, ESPECIALLY our cattle. I'm not sure I would feel that way if I had to keep up another herd, although I can honestly say that in my experience, cattle are the toughest and most self sufficient livestock one can have, so they don't need much attention.

I think if I was in your situation, I would only keep what you can handle at your place, and sell the rest. The money you make from selling the others could help pay for some of the things to make your place ready.

As far as what's been posted about being "tied down" when you own livestock, well, you can keep your fancy beach vacations and what not. As long as I have my cattle, a deer blind, a fishing pole, my wife and kids, and most importantly, my GOD, I don't reckon I need anything else.

I think you and your wife will love having those cattle, and you can honor your brother by being a good steward of what he started.

You are in my prayers, and you will do just fine no matter what you choose.

 

[kenmac]

On the question of keeping them. You'll have to decide that on your on.
With myself, the only help I have is if I manage to get a few friends here to help get them up, worm, shots, band small bulls, hay, etc,etc,.
It can get tough at times. Like Thursday, I'm headed for knee surgery. I've got a couple friends lined up to put out hay, check the water system, ride the fence line for any issues .

I'm down to 15-18 head now, and that's about all I care to handle myself, and mim. help..
Good luck

 

[redman135]

Hullo Eddie. You are going into winter so cull down to final numbers NOW. Feed will only get more expensive. DO a FEED BUDGET to sort out how many you can keep IF you even want to keep them.
Animals to go immediately are: the steer and this years bull calves.
2nd group to cull are the cows NOT incalf.
Ask the local sale yards what is needed to sell stock. Are Tags necesary, if so what kind, rfid or regular? Proof of ownership?
Note, if you keep the cattle you will be checking about twice a week.

Fencing,: A few reels and either a mains unit (best option) or battery, or maybe solar/battery. Use temporary electric fence standards(eg pigtails) while you get sorted out. Be sure to fence water in. ie trough, pond, or stream water and PERMANANT if pond or stream. Single hot wire(electric fence) is cheap and mobile.

It may be that the timing is wrong and too much needs to be done yesterday, if so cash out and reduce the stress level, and use the breathing space to plan out your next move.
Don't under estimate the cost of TIME as well as FUEL. It will mount up.
Good Luck

 

[newbury]

Eddie -
Hang in there.
I think Moss's 3.5 solution is the best.
Drastically reduce the herd as soon as practical. Figure out your own consumption of beef (including beef for your dogs) and use that as the minimum herd size.
Live cattle prices are peaking.

 

[Egon]

Condolences on the loss of you Brother Eddy.

With the cattle one option would be the economics of the situation.
That includes your labor, all materials, feed, equipment, professional services and probably much more than I would be aware of. Just keep your personal economy stable without increasing debt. Consider the situation like a bid proposal like for one of your jobs.

I grew up on a farm with cattle and had knowledge of their raising at that time. Over time requirements and overall situations have changed greatly and passed me by.

A picture of one of my childhood friends feeding cattle.

 

[EddieWalker]

Thank you for all the great comments. I'm leaning towards culling the herd down to a manageable number, and keeping the Angus bull. I agree that the intact Herford bulls and steer need to go right away. I'm just losing money feeding them that I'll never recoup if I let them grow out and sell at a later date.

I'm also realizing that keeping steers on my brothers farm is more work and time then I have to give. I'll put some effort into cleaning up the land, and trying to get some hay off of it, with the main goal of just holding on to it until it's worthwhile selling it. Having animals here just complicates my life.

According to the website for the Van Zandt Livestock Exchange, they will pen and haul your cattle. I'm sure this will cost me something, but it's something that I need to look into. I have my brothers cattle trailer filled up with stuff from his shop that I didn't want to wonder off. I don't have anywhere to put all of it right now, but will once I get back to working on my 3 car garage addition. I haven't done anything on that project for a month now. It's almost framed up, so buying the metal and getting it on the roof needs to happens as soon as possible. There isn't a great way to catch the cattle and load them either. I can build something, and I might have to, but that's another project that will cost me money and time that I would prefer to put off for as long as possible.

 

[Needville]

I raise cattle and I'm in Texas and won't try to give you any advice, just some information.

You don't need any ownership or vaccination information to sale cattle at the sale barn. They take your name and address and send you a check. It is actually kind of distressing how easy it is to steal cattle and sell them--something to think about.

It is not worth your time and effort to castrate a couple of male calves. It would be difficult with no working facilities and no knowledge to get that done. You may get a little less when you sell, but not enough less to make it worth your time to do it.

It is never too young to sell. Dairies will sell theirs at 2-3 days old.

The feedstore or sale barn will have some references for guys who will pen/work/haul your cattle. It just costs money.

Those cattle look "cube broke". Build a small pen that you can back a trailer up to. (it sounds like your brother already used a system like this). Buy a bag of cubes and feed it in the pen. I bet they come running into the pen and just shut the gate. If they don't do it the first time they will after 2-3 times. They will get to where they will be waiting inside the pen when they see your truck. I've even put some cubes in the trailer and they will jump into the trailer and load themselves. For a pen I use heavy duty panels like in my link. If the cattle are gentle you might be able to get by with cheap panels from Tractor Supply, but even with gentle cattle it doesn't take much pressure for them to hit one of the panels and the cheap ones fold up like cardboard. If you plan on keeping cattle the heavy duty ones are worth it and have a ton of uses. If you don't keep the cattle you can sell them for what you paid for them pretty easy.

Texas Tough cattle panels - farm & garden - by owner - sale

24 foot portable set of 10 Cattle panels, one panel with gate. $4000 Delivery fees vary based on location

collegestation.craigslist.org

Good luck. Everyone will tell you it is too difficult and not worth it to raise cattle. On paper it is. You raise cattle because you want to, and have to raise cattle.

 

[ponytug]

Thank you for all the great comments. I'm leaning towards culling the herd down to a manageable number, and keeping the Angus bull. I agree that the intact Herford bulls and steer need to go right away. I'm just losing money feeding them that I'll never recoup if I let them grow out and sell at a later date.

I'm also realizing that keeping steers on my brothers farm is more work and time then I have to give. I'll put some effort into cleaning up the land, and trying to get some hay off of it, with the main goal of just holding on to it until it's worthwhile selling it. Having animals here just complicates my life.

According to the website for the Van Zandt Livestock Exchange, they will pen and haul your cattle. I'm sure this will cost me something, but it's something that I need to look into. I have my brothers cattle trailer filled up with stuff from his shop that I didn't want to wonder off. I don't have anywhere to put all of it right now, but will once I get back to working on my 3 car garage addition. I haven't done anything on that project for a month now. It's almost framed up, so buying the metal and getting it on the roof needs to happens as soon as possible. There isn't a great way to catch the cattle and load them either. I can build something, and I might have to, but that's another project that will cost me money and time that I would prefer to put off for as long as possible.

+1 on @MossRoad's 3.5 suggestion. Prices are really good right now.

I agree with @kenmac that getting your bull count down to one is important. More than one bull is a recipe for bad things. "Bull in a china shop"

If your brother didn't have the fences laid out for cattle handling, then I think that the offer from the livestock company is solid gold in my book. I am sure that you could go buy cattle panels, (as @Needville says don't cheap out in panels!) and corral the cows up with a few friends, but without dogs/horses/ATVs, and people who know how to handle cattle, it can (is likely to!) get messy. (Another plug for the Storey guide to raising beef cattle, and Temple Grandin's books.) A couple of the local ranchers who knew what they were doing were kind enough to ask us to help out on their gathers when we first started. We were able to learn by doing with them. It helped me realize that even with a seasoned crew, and cattle that were used to a set routine, things can, and will, go sideways occasionally. New cows, new owner, new place adds to the degree of difficulty. That helped me feel better when our cattle handling went sideways. It happens much less often now, and I thoroughly enjoy being out with our lowline belted galloways.

We got by for three or four years without a sweep and chute, but we also got runaround chasing calves to give them shots or castrate them. For us it was money well spent, and keeps everyone, the cows and us, safe. Once you have one, run the cows through it as often as you can, until they get the routine. We used to gather them and run them through before they got the evening feed until it was no big deal.

Again, I'm sorry for your loss and the problems that have ensued. I am sure you will get it sorted out.

All the best,

Peter

 

[Jchonline]

If I remember correctly from decades ago, we had about that many momma cows on 100 acres in Ellis county. You shouldn't have to be feeding hay with the recent rains we had until we have had a frost, thinning the herd may be needed. Spending a Saturday at the livestock exchange and chatting with and learning from cattle people there might be well worth your time. Also factor in about 3 round trips a week in your decision making process.

He will be feeding hay already. Drought this Spring and Summer left hay yields at about 25% of normal. We have 100 acres of cattle farm in Eustace, TX. We area already feeding hay and we have an incredible hay meadow (lime, fertilized, sprayed for bahia/goat weeds regularly).

 

[Jchonline]

Right now is a bad time to get into cattle farming in TX. Hay is at an all time high, rain is at a low (although in the last month we have been getting some reprieve). Fertilizer is at an all time high. Beef per pound at the market is quite low. Steel is very expensive right now, so a pen and squeeze chute system will be a premium. Its near a perfect storm.

My advice is to keep enough cows to build the herd back up after you get some experience. Bull, maybe 6-10 additional females. Sell the rest.

 

[kenmac]

Right now is a bad time to get into cattle farming in TX. Hay is at an all time high, rain is at a low (although in the last month we have been getting some reprieve). Fertilizer is at an all time high. Beef per pound at the market is quite low. Steel is very expensive right now, so a pen and squeeze chute system will be a premium. Its near a perfect storm.

My advice is to keep enough cows to build the herd back up after you get some experience. Bull, maybe 6-10 additional females. Sell the rest.

we too have had very little rain. Had a little saturday but that's the first we have had in about two months. I really wouldn't call what we had saturday as rain.
My pond for watering cattle is down about 8 ft.
I sure hope we have a rainy winter season.

I will also advise him to be careful around those cattle. He may be a stranger to them, and it don't take much for a 1200# mama cow to hurt you accidently !

 

[EddieWalker]

I'm leaning strongly towards getting rid of over half of them. I like the idea of selling all the Herford bulls and steer. Then getting rid of some of the cows. I think that if I keep six cows and the Angus bull, I should have a good starter herd. I also think that the six that I keep will all be pregnant, which should increase the size of the herd quickly.

Thursday I'm going to see if I can talk to somebody at the Livestock Exchange. I doubt that I can make anything happen by this weekend, but I'm hoping that I can get things started.

This picture shows a fenced in area of about 50x50 that I've been feeding the cattle some 20% Creep. They come a running when they see me. They are very easy to get into this pen!!!

 

[Jchonline]

I'm leaning strongly towards getting rid of over half of them. I like the idea of selling all the Herford bulls and steer. Then getting rid of some of the cows. I think that if I keep six cows and the Angus bull, I should have a good starter herd. I also think that the six that I keep will all be pregnant, which should increase the size of the herd quickly.

Thursday I'm going to see if I can talk to somebody at the Livestock Exchange. I doubt that I can make anything happen by this weekend, but I'm hoping that I can get things started.

This picture shows a fenced in area of about 50x50 that I've been feeding the cattle some 20% Creep. They come a running when they see me. They are very easy to get into this pen!!!

View attachment 769597

Not only that, but you get experience on a smaller scale. Looking after calves is time consuming. Much better to have 6 than 20 your first year doing it.

 

[MossRoad]

.... They come a running when they see me. They are very easy to get into this pen!!!

Reminds me of every time we go to a zoo. The animals are standing around not doing much, then someone in a green shirt walks by and they all follow that person. They know who feeds them.

 

[OldMcDonald]

I think that if I keep six cows and the Angus bull, I should have a good starter herd. I also think that the six that I keep will all be pregnant, which should increase the size of the herd quickly.

You cannot justify keeping a bull for 6 cows. Why do you say it will be a good starter herd? You are going to produce crossbred calves from a bull of very doubtful quality. As I already posted, he is all front end and no back end. Definitely not what an AA should look like. Apart from sentimental reasons why do you want to keep such an animal? Have a look at the AA website www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk to see what an AA bull looks like. On this tiny island of Mainland Orkney there are several herds of outstanding AA. Worth a visit for anyone interested in the breed. Anybody arriving on a cruise ship can walk west for a few hundred yards and see a big number of excellent cows and calves grazing - subject to the time of year.

From what you posted it seems you intend to breed any heifers from that AA/Her cross. Again, as already posted, you are looking years ahead - and it is not unfair to call such second crosses mongrels. It most definitely is not a way to increase the size of the herd "quickly".

What bull are you going to use on them? You cannot use their father, and you cannot just keep the existing half dozen cows and breed from them for the next 10 years or so. That would probably reduce the size of the herd "quickly". If your intention is to run down the herd to no cattle, then go ahead as you posted. When do you cull the cows? When do you sell the bull? How old is the bull? How old are the cows?

The cows look good from the photographs. Why not put them to a Hereford bull and really have "a good starter herd"? Surely there is some availability of AI in your area? You get to breed your cows to the best of bulls. Hereford is not my favourite breed, but that is what I had in Australia because that is what sold best in the saleyards within a 100mile radius. You ask for advice, you get advice, but the final decision is yours. I am firmly of the opinion that what you have decided to do will end up with you having poor quality mixed breed cattle that will be of doubtful sale value.

 

[kenmac]

I wish I were close to me. I would buy those herefords. I love my herefords.
They're pretty easy to handle compared to the others I've had.


I don't know about your area but Black, or black baldy cows, steers sell for more than anything else at the stock yards here.

If you are selling private, you can get more for registered stuff but not at the stock yards here. they couldn't care less about that sheet of paper.

Here, If they're selling for 1.30 per# the one with papers will also sell for 1.30 per #

 

[EddieWalker]

You cannot justify keeping a bull for 6 cows. Why do you say it will be a good starter herd? You are going to produce crossbred calves from a bull of very doubtful quality. As I already posted, he is all front end and no back end. Definitely not what an AA should look like. Apart from sentimental reasons why do you want to keep such an animal? Have a look at the AA website www.aberdeen-angus.co.uk to see what an AA bull looks like. ...

What bull are you going to use on them? You cannot use their father, and you cannot just keep the existing half dozen cows and breed from them for the next 10 years or so. ...

You bring up some great points that I hadn't considered. All I know about the Angus bull is what they neighbors have said, and they are telling me what my brother said to them. My brother was an alcoholic that never knew what he was talking about and never finished anything he started. Even worse, if he got something wrong, he would double down on it over admitting his mistake.

The neighbors told me it was a great bull that my brother paid $3,500 for. Now that I'm thinking about it, odds are very good that he made up what he paid for the bull, and he just lied to them to act like a big shot.

I'm guilty of believing what they told me, and not knowing anything about cattle. Thinking about this, I don't see any reason to keep the bull. I've been struggling to figure out where to keep him, and how to separate him from the cows on my place. That's just more work that I don't need to deal with, and another mouth to feed that isn't going to do anything for me in return.

I appreciate your honesty and willingness to be blunt.

 

[EddieWalker]

Now I'm questioning what cows to keep? What should I be looking for in deciding which ones are better then the others? Younger seems like it would be better then older. How do I know their age without papers? Is bigger better, or is their an "ideal" size? Any characteristics to look for that would be bad?

I was thinking that I would keep the ones that are most obviously pregnant. My thinking is that they are proven breeders, and I won't have to deal with breeding them for awhile. Good or bad logic?

Since I don't have any facilities to deal with cattle yet at my place, and my brother never built any at his place, am I opening a can of worms in having calves sooner then later?

 

[dieselscout80]

The first calf from a heifer (we called them 1st calf heifer) can have more birthing problems at than the second time around.

 

[ponytug]

Now I'm questioning what cows to keep? What should I be looking for in deciding which ones are better then the others? Younger seems like it would be better then older. How do I know their age without papers? Is bigger better, or is their an "ideal" size? Any characteristics to look for that would be bad?

I was thinking that I would keep the ones that are most obviously pregnant. My thinking is that they are proven breeders, and I won't have to deal with breeding them for awhile. Good or bad logic?

Since I don't have any facilities to deal with cattle yet at my place, and my brother never built any at his place, am I opening a can of worms in having calves sooner then later?

If you don't have a local cattle expert that you trust, it might be worth having a vet stop for his/her $0.02 on which ones are "keepers". Our local brand inspector was very helpful when we started; she kept an eye out for the two breeds of cattle that we were looking for, and ensured that we didn't get strong armed out of the auction.

For a little perspective: you are looking at two of the most common types of beef cattle in the US. (Angus/Hereford) So, you could sell all of your brother's cattle, and buy back equivalent cattle quite easily. As noted above, cattle with and without papers go for the same $/lb. My point being, if your brother's cattle are forcing your hand in some way, sell them. At some point in the future, when you are ready, you will be able to easily buy the heifers / two year old cow-calf pairs / older cows / bull that you want. Keep a cow or two from your brother, if you want a memento; we still have the original two cows we bought in 2007. They may be old, but they are still calving and happy; we are happy to see them happy.

All the best,

Peter