Educate me on having cattle

[ponytug]

You might want to think about where you put water access, and having some one way gates. If you have centralized water, your cows will come to the water at least once or twice a day. If there are one way gates, say at your circle with water there, you can arrange it for the cows to move themselves, once they learn to push through the one way gates (prop it partially open to train them to push in). Rousting out a recalcitrant mother and calf out of a pasture gets old.

If you plan on feeding at the barn, consider concreting over the entire feeding space and then some. It will make keeping the area clean much easier. Also, consider designing things for feeding the largest bales that your tractor can unstuck and handle.

Just my $0.02

All the best,

Peter

 

[LouNY]

The shorter the distance they travel for feed and water the better weight gain.
The smaller the pasture the better the grass utilization, small pastures 2 to 5 acres with water especially with cow numbers.

 

[MossRoad]

That's my front entrance. It leads to my houses. The pasture above is the 5 acre feed area. It has a small half acre pond, and my little barn.

Corral yourself in there too!

 

[MossRoad]

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View attachment 770594

That's very similar to what I was describing our friend has done with his place, only his is all rectangles and right angles, and he has about a 100' long alley between all of them with gates to a corner of each pasture and his barns. His water is all at the outside of the barn, so that stays open anytime the cows are in a pasture so they can walk over and drink as desired. And if he has to, he can just shut them in the immediate area of the barn, which is probably 75x75.

Another humorous note. He had some high school kids help him stack hay bales in his barn. They didn't stack them very well. He woke up the next morning and saw a bale out in the middle of the barnyard. What the heck?

Sometime during the night, the stack of bales fell over in the barn up against a dutch door that the top half was open on. A cow reached in and pulled a bale out!

 

[EddieWalker]

A friend of my brothers helped us with the cattle. He came over and showed us how to load them up in his trailer. Then we took them to his place where we worked them. He has a very nice set up to handle large numbers of cattle. They where all weighed and then given shots according to their weight. We put new ear tags in them and sorted them into several different groups. The six that we are keeping, the bulls, and the ones we are selling. They are all in good shape, maybe even a little fat. All the cows and heifers are pregnant with calves due around Feb to March. The heifers where 800 to 850 pounds. The bigger girls where 1,200 to 1,600 pounds. The angus weighed 1,650 pounds and he looks to be 3 years old. The plan for him is to put some weight on him and sell him as a breeder. We brought the six back to my brothers place, and I bought some minerals for them. He had a mineral feeder, but it was empty.

This is them at my brothers place after I gave them some Creep to get them into the pen. I moved the feeders to the fence so we didn't have to go in there with them. They are gentle and I'm not afraid of them doing anything, but they are also pushy at getting to the feed, and it's slippery with mud in there. This just made it a lot safer. Karen, slowly kept them fed while we got the panels in place to get them into the trailer.

 

[LouNY]

One caution with the feeders up next to the fence they are liable to crowd around and get to pushing and shoving for the feed which will be rough on your fence. The cows are not likely to be very aggressive when being fed other then trying to get there greedy noses in the bag or bucket while you are trying to feed them.
I would be more careful with the bulls not because they are "meaner" per say even though they can be, but they are stronger and are more likely to injure you unintentionally. In a group they are not as aggressive as individually.

 

[ponytug]

@EddieWalker that sounds like progress, and a great situation. Congratulations!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Creamer]

Eddie - Sorry about your loss of a brother - that is a hard one especially at your age.

Growing up on a cattle ranch that my nephews still run in South Dakota I have to laugh at some of the comments. I was raised on the Triple S Hereford ranch where we raised purebred and commercial horned Herefords and sold bulls and bred heifers as well as fat cattle and I cannot think of a better breed to raise due to a lot of their traits as far as growth, durability, meat quality, feed conversion, etc. My nephews have however crossbred a lot of Black in them as your brother was looking to do because they do sell better - for instance my nephew just sold two loads of fats and got them in CAB (Certified Angus Beef) which is a bonus on the receipts end. They run about 850 head of cows.

1st thing - I have never heard of sun-burned belly on a white bottomed animal - we never had that problem and there are a lot of Herefords in Montana.

In looking at the pictures your brother has some nice cattle not just run of the mill. I am seeing moderate sized cows that have a lot of body length and straightness which will produce nice carcasses and a high carcass yield. I am seeing coloration around the eyes which is one weakness of Herefords and the coloration really helps to keep eye issues down. The bull has nice size without courseness which should mean he is an easy calver but good growth. A little light in the rear but not bad.

it would really help to have some records on calving ease and milk - another area where Herefords have been a little weak in but a little feeding the calf supplemental -creep feed - after they are 3 months or so can make up for that if that is an issue.

Your cows look like nice and tame and good disposition - something we always considered a must. One person getting hurt is not worth it and you shouldn't have on the place. You have to watch Angus - they can get snorty. My nephews just sold off some bulls last year because the calves did not behave properly. He bought new bulls and and said this years calves have a totally different attiude. he always watches for this in the bloodline of his bulls that he buys and is very particular but he got three bulls that had an attitude and passed it on.

It is not too late to neuter the three young ones. You do not need to purchase equipment if you have a couple of cowboy friends around. I have another niece and nephew who ranch and run about 450 head and they do it all the old fashioned way, i.e roping and both the head and the back legs. It would be easier to take them to a friend or vet that has equipment though. The other option is to put them on feed and fatten them quick and sell the meat privately. There is nothing wrong with young bull meat except that it is a little leaner than steer meat - they don't fatten and marble quite as well. The castration goes back to the old west days when they butchered animals 3-4 years old and then it would make a big difference. Under 14 months and fed hot (a very rich ration) you wouldn't know the difference - may be the easiest way to get the most out of them. Taking three of these to sale barn will get you about half price of market value because there are only three and a potential problem.

You do not need barns - my nephews cattle never see barns unless there is a sick one or something odd happens and it is just easier to deal with it inside with small pens. Remember a cows ideal temperature is 40 degrees F - it doesn't get too cold where you are at. Shade is important though as these breeds do not take the heat quite as well as a brahma or other light colored slick haired breeds.

The bottom line though is that you are only going to make any money if you sell breeding stock or private meat. Your herd is too small for the commercial meat guys to deal with and they are not going to bother. They have big herds and anytime they bring in outside cattle there is a risk of bringing in some disease or problem and you don't have enough for them to want to deal with that issue. You do have cattle that are nice to be around though and are very enjoyable and if you like that they are well worth the stress relief and a few tax breaks. Not living on a farm I miss the cattle - they were just nice to look at at the end of the day - so calm and relaxed and very pleasant. And of course being a Hereford guy the white face guy always looks better!

 

[lman]

When I was a kid, we picked a Limousin bull that we bred with our herefords. The calves were nice but ornery and there was a big difference in working the calves.

 

[OldMcDonald]

@Creamer Giving just a "like" is not enough for such a knowledgeable and well written post. I had to tell you too.

I have no USA experience but where I was in Australia 30 to 40 years ago they were the only breed that sold well. As you point out, white eyes were their biggest problem and brown eyes should have been bred into them long before. I shudder every time I think of a cow with Pink Eye and I am not squeamish about anything.

 

[two_bit_score]

What would I do????

Sell everything expect for the cattle you can easily handle at your place. After a year you can decide if raising beef makes sense.

What I would add to this good advice is to buy the 40 acres. Keep the cattle on there. Sell the bull calves and the breeding bull. You can "probably" reasonably expect to run about 10 Mama cows on 40 acres if there is good grass. Look into artificial insemination instead of a $3500 bull for that number of cows.

The 40 ac I guess is already peremiter fenced and maybe cross fenced. Yours is not. This is just a start but you'll do fine. Go to the A&M Pasture Management course they have at Overton. It's well woth the cost and time if you are going to raise cows.

 

[two_bit_score]

On animals that are handled every day, maybe.
The Angus on the farm, no way in heck.
When you do catch that new calf you had better have someone else with you with a good cane to keep that cow from climbing all over you.

Probably need more than a cane. Ive seen mama cows jump out of a trailer to get to their calves.

 

[Creamer]

On animals that are handled every day, maybe.
The Angus on the farm, no way in heck.
When you do catch that new calf you had better have someone else with you with a good cane to keep that cow from climbing all over you.

Why do you put up with cattle like that? It is plain stupid. When i was a kid my Dad and older brother kept a few like that but my nephews just said no. No cow is worth what your hospital bills would be. My nephews run 850 head and if they have one that acts wrong in any way she is gone. Bulls are the same - not worth it. I can tell you absolutely assinine stories of people and problems with bulls but I look back I ask why - there was just as good of bull down the road and they were not that way. If it is a business treat it like one, if they are pets enjoy them - but in neither case should there be any risk.

The only time I can remember someone getting hurt directly by a an animal on our farm is one time my Dad got squeezed by a bull. We were taking them to the pasture for breeding season and we put two bulls in the stock trailer. One had a little foot rot and my Dad wanted to give him a shot of anitbiotic while we had him contained. My Dad steps into the stock trailer and jams a needle in the bulls butt. The bull tries to turn around in the trailer but it was only 6' wide and Dad wasn't paying attention and the side of the bull's butt squeezed him into the side of the trailer and bruised a few ribs. If your animals are not that tame that you can give them shots in a small pen you are doing something wrong.

One of the problems with Angus is that they are black and therefore have been crossed with everything under the sun and are still called **** by unethical breeders. It is worth it to have reputable breeding in your animals so you know what you are getting.

 

[LouNY]

Why do you put up with cattle like that? It is plain stupid. When i was a kid my Dad and older brother kept a few like that but my nephews just said no. No cow is worth what your hospital bills would be. My nephews run 850 head and if they have one that acts wrong in any way she is gone. Bulls are the same - not worth it. I can tell you absolutely assinine stories of people and problems with bulls but I look back I ask why - there was just as good of bull down the road and they were not that way. If it is a business treat it like one, if they are pets enjoy them - but in neither case should there be any risk.

The only time I can remember someone getting hurt directly by a an animal on our farm is one time my Dad got squeezed by a bull. We were taking them to the pasture for breeding season and we put two bulls in the stock trailer. One had a little foot rot and my Dad wanted to give him a shot of anitbiotic while we had him contained. My Dad steps into the stock trailer and jams a needle in the bulls butt. The bull tries to turn around in the trailer but it was only 6' wide and Dad wasn't paying attention and the side of the bull's butt squeezed him into the side of the trailer and bruised a few ribs. If your animals are not that tame that you can give them shots in a small pen you are doing something wrong.

One of the problems with Angus is that they are black and therefore have been crossed with everything under the sun and are still called **** by unethical breeders. It is worth it to have reputable breeding in your animals so you know what you are getting.

Well we may be doing something wrong, that is possible. We have only had either milk or beef cows since my grandfather got out of the creamery bussiness and started dairy farming in the early 1900's however...
I seriously doubt that someone running 850 head can have animals this tame,
"If your animals are not that tame that you can give them shots in a small pen you are doing something wrong."

 

[EddieWalker]

The goal is to keep the land. I've spoken to his loan officer about taking over the loan, getting a new loan, and paying it off in cash. All are options that I'm considering.

I do not want to drive 62 miles each way to deal with cattle. The fences are doing the job for right now, but they are rusted out pretty bad in places, overgrown in other places, and patched together all over the place. There used to be three pastures, but the wire is down, or missing in areas. The T posts are rusted out, bent and for some reason, really short.

Going back and forth takes too much time. I make my money remodeling homes and it's costing me money just taking the time to go there. I'm trying to get it down to just once a week to get through winter, but I have been going every other day to take care of his dog and all the ducks. The dog is at my place now and the ducks are almost gone. There are 6 cows on his place now, the others are at his friends ranch, where they are going to be sold. I do not think we'll sell any at the Livestock Auction.

Long term plan for the land is to clean it up, make it as nice looking as possible, and maybe get some hay off of it. I can sell hay there, or haul some of it to my place. He has a 30x40 shop that I could store hay in, which would make it even better.

My wife has put a few hurdles in front of my to get done before I concentrate on the fence. She wants the fencing changed for our dogs. I gave her the idea, so it's my fault, but it's a good change that should be done, so I'm good with getting it done. She also wants the garage addition made weather tight. Another thing that I agree on. We desperately need more storage with all my brothers stuff here. My shop is so full that we have to walk a winding path to get through it. The piles are crazy, but we don't have any choice because it would all be stolen if we left it there. I'm planning on ordering the metal for the roof of our garage addition this week. It's 30x52, and attached to the side of my shop, which is attached to the house, so it's going to be a big improvement for us. I'm just going to install the metal R panels for the roof, put OSB on the walls and wrap it in house wrap, then start on the fencing. I can always add Hardie a little at a time once the house wrap is up.

Once the cattle are here, then I will start on the barn. I may change my mind on that, it really depends on how tired I am of driving out there, and if they have calved yet or not.

I'm also liking the idea of fence line feeders for round bales a lot. I've been watching them on YouTube, and being able to put a round bale out for the, but not having to deal with them at the gate as I go through it would be great. I also like the idea of putting a roof over the hay, and having it on concrete. I also want to have concrete around it so the animals are not in mud. If I do it right, I should be able to scrape the concrete clean a few times a year without too much trouble.

This is also the plan with the barn. It's not to shelter the animals, but they can use it if they want out of the weather, but it's more to provide us a place to feed them and for my wife and I to be safe, dry and as comfortable as possible.

None of what I'm doing is designed to make us money. I fully understand that I'm going to spend more money on the land, fencing, barns, feeders, and handling system, then I'll ever make back in selling them. Same thing with my goats, horses, and chickens. It's just how we want to live our life, and we work so we can afford to live the best life we can. It's even worse with our dogs!!!

I'll have to take a better picture of the garage, but this is the best that I have right now.

 

[Creamer]

Well we may be doing something wrong, that is possible. We have only had either milk or beef cows since my grandfather got out of the creamery bussiness and started dairy farming in the early 1900's however...
I seriously doubt that someone running 850 head can have animals this tame,
"If your animals are not that tame that you can give them shots in a small pen you are doing something wrong."

You may seriously doubt it and they may not be able to give a shot in a pen with all of them with as much Angus as he has in the herd - they just are not quite as docile as Herefords. But if you have the herd in a corral you can walk among them and may have to slap them on the butt to get them to move. They certainly are not pets though - they spend their life on the range and are only fed when during about 3 months in the winter - otherwise they are on their own.

I have never been around dairy bulls but I have always heard that you never trust them.

One time when i was a kid probably 7 or so i walked out in the small corral where we had some of our old bulls in the spring when they wanted to lose some hair. I walked up to this one old bull and started to scratch his back. He is obviously enjoying it and starts to wiggle back and forth and side to side. He was one of those Herefords with a perfect set of horns - curved downward but nice and wide. He was probably 5 or 6 years old at this time. Well he liked me scratching him so reached up with the other hand and was scratching his back with both hands and he really starts getting into it. Suddenly one of his horns hooks me around the middle and he tosses me 10-12 feet and I landed on some dried out rough corral dirt. I wake up to him nuzzling me and licking me - I am sure he was wondering why I stopped scratchign him. he probably did not even know he had thrown me. Our bulls were that tame and we had about 40 at that time. I have walked up to some of my nephews' bulls out in the pasture - not when they are with cows - in the same way.

 

[two_bit_score]

@Creamer My dad had a friend who fed Brahman (Brimmers as we called them) cattle from a sack of cubes by hand and never got hurt. He had really worked them to get them that gentle but I never got in there among them like he did.

 

[two_bit_score]

That sounds like a good plan @EddieWalker. I do seriously recommend that pasture workshop at Overton by the TxAg Extension Service. It's worth it.